Author Topic: Gun control laws do they work ?  (Read 20509 times)

Offline hlbly

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Re: Gun control laws do they work ?
« Reply #240 on: August 25, 2012, 10:52:22 PM »
Sarcasm is one of my most endearing qualities. No, I am not serving. Sorry if I gave that impression.

Hlbly, was I the only one who saw this?

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=272929 Check out this paper TJ . He is very transparent in his sources and methodology . Where did those stats come from ardy ?

Offline hlbly

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Re: Gun control laws do they work ?
« Reply #241 on: August 25, 2012, 10:54:07 PM »
Wow a political thread. Skuzzdusky must be on vacation. :noid
A legal thread .a fairly polite one too .

Offline hlbly

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Re: Gun control laws do they work ?
« Reply #242 on: August 25, 2012, 11:06:33 PM »
Sarcasm is one of my most endearing qualities. No, I am not serving. Sorry if I gave that impression.

Hlbly, was I the only one who saw this?

Okay where did the stats come from ? If this is from the VPC then I can tell you they won't even make clear how the assembled the stats . I am a little unsure  of that . This guy Lott tells it all sources methodology variables .


Lott

More Guns Equal Less Violent Crime
by Professor John R. Lott, Jr.
University of Chicago Law School
1111 East 60th Street, Chicago IL 60637

For the Democratic Party the solution to violent crime is clear - more regulation of guns. The convention speeches by James and Sarah Brady were filled with moving stories of their personal suffering. While the impacts described on both sides of the issue do exist, the crucial question underlying all gun-control laws is: What is their net effect? Are more lives lost or saved? Do they deter crime or encourage it? Anecdotal evidence obviously cannot resolve this debate. To provide a more systematic answer, I recently completed a study of one type of gun control law-laws on concealed handguns, also known as "shall-issue" laws. Thirty-one states give their citizens the right to carry concealed handguns if they do not have a criminal record or a history of significant mental illness. My study, with David Mustard, a graduate student in economics at the University of Chicago, analyzed the FBI's crime statistics for all 3,054 American counties from 1977 to 1992. Our findings are dramatic. Our most conservative estimates show that by adopting shall-issue laws, states reduced murders by 8.5%, rapes by 5%, aggravated assaults by 7% and robbery by 3%. If those states that did not permit concealed handguns in 1992 had permitted them back then, citizens might have been spared approximately 1,570 murders, 4,177 rapes, 60,000 aggravated assaults and 12,000 robberies. To put it even more simply Criminals, we found, respond rationally to deterrence threats.

The benefit of concealed handguns are not limited to just those who carry them or use them in self-defense. The very fact that these weapons are concealed keeps criminals uncertain as to whether a potential victim will be able to defend himself with lethal force. The possibility that anyone might be carrying a gun makes attacking everyone less attractive; unarmed citizens in effect "free-ride" on their pistol packing fellows. Our study further found that while some criminals avoid potentially violent crimes after concealed-handgun laws were passed, they do not necessarily give up the criminal life altogether. Some switch to crimes in which the rise of confronting an armed victim is much lower. Indeed, the downside of concealed-weapons laws is that while Violent crime rates fall, property offenses like larceny (e.g. stealing from unattended automobiles or vending machines) and auto theft rise. This is certainly a substitution that the country can live with.

Our study also provided some surprising information. While support for strict gun-control laws usually bas been strongest in large cities, where crime rates are highest, that's precisely where right-to-carry laws have produced the largest drops in violent crimes. For example, in counties with populations of more than 200,000 people, concealed handgun laws produced an average drop in murder rates of more than 13%. The half of the counties with the highest rape rates saw that crime drop by more than 7%.

Concealed handguns also appear to help women more than men. Murder rates decline when either sex carries more guns, but the effect is especially pronounced when women are considered separately. An additional woman carrying a concealed handgun reduces the murder rate for women by about three to four times more than an additional armed man reduces the murder rate for men. Victims of violent crime are generally physically weaker than the criminals who prey on them. Allowing a woman to defend herself with a concealed handgun makes a larger difference in her ability to defend herself than the change created by providing a man with a handgun. Guns are the great equalizer between the weak and the vicious. At the Democratic convention, President Clinton played up his proposed expansion of the 1994 Brady Law, which by making it harder for men convicted of domestic violence to obtain guns is designed to reduce crime against women. Our study is the first to provide direct empirical evidence of the Brady Law's effect on crime rates and we found just the opposite result: The law's implementation is associated with more aggravated assaults and rapes. Mrs. Brady's exaggerated estimates of the number of felons denied access to guns are a poor measure of the law's impact on crime rates.

We also collected data on whether owners of concealed handguns are more likely to use them in committing violent crimes. The rarity of these incidents is reflected in Florida's statistics: More than 300,000 concealed- handgun licenses were issued between October 1, 1987 and December 31, 1945, but only five violent crimes involving permitted pistols were committed in this period. And none of these resulted in fatalities. That's of 1% misuse rate for permitted pistols in an eight year period or LESS than 1/1000 of 1% misuse rate per year.

What about minor disputes such as traffic accidents? Are legal owners of concealed handguns more likely to use them in such situations? In 31 states, some of which have had concealed weapons laws for decades, there is only one recorded incident (earlier this year in Texas) in which a concealed handgun, was used in a shooting following an accident. Even in that one case, a grand jury found that the shooting was in self-defense: The shooter was being beaten by the other driver.

And what about accidental deaths? The number of accidental handgun deaths each year is fewer than 200. Our estimates imply that if the states without "shall issue" laws were to adopt them, the increase in accidental handgun deaths would be at most nine more deaths per year. This is small indeed when compared to the at least 1,570 murders that would be avoided.

While no single study is likely to end the debate on concealed handguns, ours provides the first systematic national evidence. By contrast, the largest prior study examined only 170 cities within a single year. The nearly 50,000 observations in our data set allow us to control for a range of factors that have never been accounted for in any previous study of crime, let alone any previous gun-control study. Among other variables, our regressions control for arrest and conviction rates, prison sentences, changes in handgun laws such as waiting periods and the imposition of additional penalties for using a gun to commit a crime, income, poverty, unemployment and demographic changes. Preventing, law-abiding citizens from carrying handguns does not end violence, but merely makes them more vulnerable to attack. The very size and strength of our results should at least give pause to those who oppose concealed handguns. The opportunity to reduce the murder rate by simply relaxing a regulation ought to be difficult to ignore.

Offline TonyJoey

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Re: Gun control laws do they work ?
« Reply #243 on: August 25, 2012, 11:28:59 PM »
One quick thing to note is that the portion you posted seems to be arguing against restrictions on concealed handguns, and I haven't really made any specific gun control legislation suggestions in this thread. My presence here has been to just make the point that there is room on both sides of the issue and to try to dispel a couple common pro-gun talking points. Extreme positions tend to not lend themselves to productive, much less enjoyable debate. Instead it just forces the opposition to adopt an extreme position as well just to balance out the absurdity. In the "Colorado Gun Demand" thread I argued for a ban of extended capacity magazines, and still stand by that belief, although that issue has already been debated from just about every angle possible.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2012, 11:31:22 PM by TonyJoey »

Offline hlbly

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Re: Gun control laws do they work ?
« Reply #244 on: August 25, 2012, 11:38:35 PM »
Wow . Check this out .

Professor Gary Kleck is a life long (self-avowed) liberal democrat, author of Point Blank: Guns and Violence in America. He had expected the research involved in that writing to infer negatively on gun ownership. He discovered a vast amount of violent crimes were prevented by firearms usage. Even though this was contrary to his original premise, he had the integrity to stand by his research. Although that book was awarded the best book (of 1993) on criminology by the American Society of Criminology it was largely ignored by gun control advocates such as most medical journals and our Government's Justice Department and Center for Disease Control.


http://www.largo.org/klecksum.html


Anyone who advocates for gun control and doesn't read this is dishonest . Sorry Ardy ,TJ this guy shows how invalid the statistics you quote are .

Offline hlbly

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Re: Gun control laws do they work ?
« Reply #245 on: August 25, 2012, 11:41:44 PM »
One quick thing to note is that the portion you posted seems to be arguing against restrictions on concealed handguns, and I haven't really made any specific gun control legislation suggestions in this thread. My presence here has been to just make the point that there is room on both sides of the issue and to try to dispel a couple common pro-gun talking points. Extreme positions tend to not lend themselves to productive, much less enjoyable debate. Instead it just forces the opposition to adopt an extreme position as well just to balance out the absurdity. In the "Colorado Gun Demand" thread I argued for a ban of extended capacity magazines, and still stand by that belief, although that issue has already been debated from just about every angle possible.
Read the link above . It far more eloquently states what is wrong with the practical side of tat argument . Without even touching the Constitutionality of it . The right to carry is only one portion of Lott's work . After all TJ what is the intent of gun control ? To reduce violent crime like the mass shooting in Colorado . I don't know and there is no way to be sure . It is possible gun control laws lead to the massacre . The law I am referring to is the gun free zone . Even where concealed weapons are permitted some places you still can't carry them . The location in Co. is one . Now I am not saying it did . Just it is possible . The only other reason for gun control I can think of is to limit accidental death . Am I missing something ?
« Last Edit: August 25, 2012, 11:50:05 PM by hlbly »

Offline guncrasher

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Re: Gun control laws do they work ?
« Reply #246 on: August 26, 2012, 01:27:46 AM »
Read the link above . It far more eloquently states what is wrong with the practical side of tat argument . Without even touching the Constitutionality of it . The right to carry is only one portion of Lott's work . After all TJ what is the intent of gun control ? To reduce violent crime like the mass shooting in Colorado . I don't know and there is no way to be sure . It is possible gun control laws lead to the massacre . The law I am referring to is the gun free zone . Even where concealed weapons are permitted some places you still can't carry them . The location in Co. is one . Now I am not saying it did . Just it is possible . The only other reason for gun control I can think of is to limit accidental death . Am I missing something ?


hlbly the truth about gun control, is that more or less gun laws wont stop the law abiding idiot that one day wakes up and decides to show up at some place and shoot as many people as he can.

we can only wonder if those people in new york if they had been carrying a gun and shot back what would have happened. more victims?  I mean if they police who is supposed to be highly trained can open fire and shoot 9 bystanders, what would have happened in Colorado if some of those in the theater would have had guns themselves.  how many more would have gotten shot?

I am all for the second amendment but lately it makes me wonder who should I be more concerned with,  police, law abiding citizens going postal, or criminals.



semp
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Offline Slash27

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Re: Gun control laws do they work ?
« Reply #247 on: August 26, 2012, 01:45:07 AM »

hlbly the truth about gun control, is that more or less gun laws wont stop the law abiding idiot that one day wakes up and decides to show up at some place and shoot as many people as he can.

we can only wonder if those people in new york if they had been carrying a gun and shot back what would have happened. more victims?  I mean if they police who is supposed to be highly trained can open fire and shoot 9 bystanders, what would have happened in Colorado if some of those in the theater would have had guns themselves.  how many more would have gotten shot?

I am all for the second amendment but lately it makes me wonder who should I be more concerned with,  police, law abiding citizens going postal, or criminals.



semp
Maybe you should lock yourself in your house.

Offline MarineUS

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Re: Gun control laws do they work ?
« Reply #248 on: August 26, 2012, 01:47:12 AM »
This is going to be my only post in this thread.


1. They aren't very law abiding if they're going postal. Pretty sure it's illegal to start fragging folks for the lulz.

2. Just because someone is SUPPOSED to be trained, doesn't mean they are. I know several Marines who are supposed to be able to pick up my spot on the .50 if I go down, but wouldn't be able to do anything other than fire it.

3. A bad cop is a criminal. He's violating his oath. Plain and simple.

And good find on the author/book there hlbly.

Maybe you should lock yourself in your house.
The world can be a scary place for those who can't face the reality that not all people are bad and not all people are good.
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Offline Slash27

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Re: Gun control laws do they work ?
« Reply #249 on: August 26, 2012, 02:01:50 AM »
This is going to be my only post in this thread.


1. They aren't very law abiding if they're going postal. Pretty sure it's illegal to start fragging folks for the lulz.

I think that part is obvious to everyone but him.

Offline Tupac

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Re: Gun control laws do they work ?
« Reply #250 on: August 26, 2012, 02:08:57 AM »
Personally I spend all day hiding under my bed hoping a meteor doesn't hit my house.
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Offline guncrasher

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Re: Gun control laws do they work ?
« Reply #251 on: August 26, 2012, 02:24:00 AM »
This is going to be my only post in this thread.


1. They aren't very law abiding if they're going postal. Pretty sure it's illegal to start fragging folks for the lulz.

2. Just because someone is SUPPOSED to be trained, doesn't mean they are. I know several Marines who are supposed to be able to pick up my spot on the .50 if I go down, but wouldn't be able to do anything other than fire it.

3. A bad cop is a criminal. He's violating his oath. Plain and simple.

And good find on the author/book there hlbly.
The world can be a scary place for those who can't face the reality that not all people are bad and not all people are good.

wow, arent you repeating what I said?




semp

I think that part is obvious to everyone but him.

 :rolleyes:  of course a law abiding citizen will never commit a crime.  just go on the freeway and pretend that all those guys going above the speed limit aren't breaking the laws.  of course if you crash and kill somebody then that means you were a criminal to begin with after all a law abiding citizen like you will never go above the speed limit.  you can pretend all you want that only career criminals commit crimes.



semp
you dont want me to ho, dont point your plane at me.

Offline Chalenge

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Re: Gun control laws do they work ?
« Reply #252 on: August 26, 2012, 02:28:14 AM »
I say this whenever the topic of gun control comes up. Gun control is like stopping drunk drivers by taking cars away from sober people. Think about it!
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Offline zack1234

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Re: Gun control laws do they work ?
« Reply #253 on: August 26, 2012, 04:43:26 AM »
Research,probablity and statistics and scientific anaylsis is irrelevnt and only there to keep the social elites and academics in positions of power and prestige, we all know right from wrong and know that the state in incapable of protecting its less wealthy citizens. (if they could this thread would not exist)

If you have a gun and some else has a gun  they will keep away from you if they are crimminals and if they don't you get defend yourself regardsless of results. (fact)

If you don't have a gun someone who has a gun will NOT keep away from you if they are a crimminals and you cannot defend yourself. (fact)

Justifing a point of view using statisics and analysis is just the old saying "Can't see the wood for the trees" "Hiding common sense) The elites don't like common sense, they would all be out of jobs. (Foucoult written lots on the subject) :)

We all know that crimminals do what they do because they "CAN" :)


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Offline -tronski-

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Re: Gun control laws do they work ?
« Reply #254 on: August 26, 2012, 05:42:59 AM »
I say this whenever the topic of gun control comes up. Gun control is like stopping drunk drivers by taking cars away from sober people. Think about it!

If gun control is like drunk driving then thats why there are driver licenses, driver tests, driver education, RBT & targeted traffic enforcement, alcohol laws, and gaol time to try to limit the amount of idiots who drive drunk and kill people

 Tronsky
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