Overhead Gunnery Pass?

[SKJohn]

Was reading an article in Flight Journal about what might have happened if the war had continued to 1947 and the Germans had mastered the Navy's "overhead gunnery pass."  The guy stated that if they had used it against the allied bombers, daylight bombing would have ended in 1943, but because they didn't have enough fuel to train their pilots in this technique, they stuck with the head-on pass at the bombers. (Notice HOing WAS used in WWII . . . .)  THey mentioned that it presented a much bigger target to shoot at than the head on pass did.

Anyway, does anybody know exactly what that was?  Is it just diving down from above? Straight above?  From behind and above?  In front and above?  I googled the term but couldn't find any description of it . . . . was wondering if anybody else knew exactly what constituted the "Navy overhead gunnery pass?"

[Krusty]

The Germans were quite well versed in attacking bombers from any and every angle, especially overhead. It wasn't the attacking of bombers, it was the escorts interfering with the attacking of bombers, that lost them the war. In 1943 they inflicted such bad casualties on the 8th AF that they almost stopped US daylight bombing altogether.

I've never heard of what you're referring to. I think you've read some inaccurate info.

[FLS]

Was reading an article in Flight Journal about what might have happened if the war had continued to 1947 and the Germans had mastered the Navy's "overhead gunnery pass."  The guy stated that if they had used it against the allied bombers, daylight bombing would have ended in 1943, but because they didn't have enough fuel to train their pilots in this technique, they stuck with the head-on pass at the bombers. (Notice HOing WAS used in WWII . . . .)  THey mentioned that it presented a much bigger target to shoot at than the head on pass did.

Anyway, does anybody know exactly what that was?  Is it just diving down from above? Straight above?  From behind and above?  In front and above?  I googled the term but couldn't find any description of it . . . . was wondering if anybody else knew exactly what constituted the "Navy overhead gunnery pass?"

I believe "overhead gunnery pass" refers to a diving attack that crosses the bombers flight path at an angle. This makes defensive gunnery more difficult but requires good deflection shooting by the attacker. Germans in WW2 could do the same thing but they had success with attacks aligned with the bomber's flight path. Its possible that the German method was better suited for cannon and the machine guns of the USN aircraft where more suitable for deflection shooting but I think the article is stretching a speculative point to say that it would have made any difference.

[Ack-Ack]

I've never heard of what you're referring to. I think you've read some inaccurate info.

It's not inaccurate, well, the tactic of "overhead gunnery pass" isn't inaccurate and was the primary USN tactic to engage bombers and medium and high altitudes.

U.S. CONFIDENTIAL
BRITISH SECRET  


NAVAER
Interview of
MAJOR J.N. RENNER, USMC

First Marine Aircraft Wing, Ass't Operations Officer
Commanding Officer VMO-251
Operations Officer MAG-11
in the
Bureau of Aeronautics
17 July 1943


TRAINING

   In training, I allowed one hour for solo, to get the pilots used to the airplane. The second hour they started flying section and division tactics. About the fourth hour they were in gunnery. We went through a very hurried syllabus, trying to cover everything we would need at Guadalcanal. One of the most important things is individual combat, the same thing we had practiced in peacetime, except that we took up two teams of four planes each, and got up there and mixed it up. There are going to be mid-air collisions in combat, and you may as well get used to looking out for seven other men in the sky besides yourself.

   The most important rule I made was "stick together." The formation ultimately breaks up, but each wing man must stay with his section leader. What it amounts to is that several small columns revolve about each other. Whenever in training a pilot lost his section leader, I gave him hell.


TACTICS
   Since there was time to practice only one pass, we emphasized the overhead pass in tactics against bombers. If a man can do the proper overhead pass, he can do an above-side from either side. A direct overhead pass gives the enemy less time to fire, and he can't bring his guns to bear.

ack-ack

[Krusty]

Well, inaccurate in as far as it pertains to the LW attacks. Thanks for the info, though. Now I know what it is in reference to the USN.

[bangsbox]

I've done it many times and I'm good at it but there us more than a few guys that will kill you anyway. I've even been killed doing it in a 262...damn u 99999

[MrKrabs]

I've done it many times and I'm good at it but there us more than a few guys that will kill you anyway. I've even been killed doing it in a 262...damn u 99999

Range: 999!!! They're Going To HO You!!
999000: (*stares) Idiots...
Enemy Pilot: MWHAHAHAHAHH
999000: (*stares) Pulls Trigger
Enemy Pilot: AYEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!! (*splat)
999000: My HO is better than yours...

[thndregg]

This is where we focus on keeping a tight bomber formation. Essentially, lots more 50 cals against high angle attacks because they are more difficult to gun against.

[guncrasher]

Was reading an article in Flight Journal about what might have happened if the war had continued to 1947 and the Germans had mastered the Navy's "overhead gunnery pass."  The guy stated that if they had used it against the allied bombers, daylight bombing would have ended in 1943, but because they didn't have enough fuel to train their pilots in this technique, they stuck with the head-on pass at the bombers. (Notice HOing WAS used in WWII . . . .)  THey mentioned that it presented a much bigger target to shoot at than the head on pass did.

Anyway, does anybody know exactly what that was?  Is it just diving down from above? Straight above?  From behind and above?  In front and above?  I googled the term but couldn't find any description of it . . . . was wondering if anybody else knew exactly what constituted the "Navy overhead gunnery pass?"

perhaps if they had never attacked russia.... there's all kinds of ifs...


semp

[lunatic1]

Range: 999!!! They're Going To HO You!!
999000: (*stares) Idiots...
Enemy Pilot: MWHAHAHAHAHH
999000: (*stares) Pulls Trigger
Enemy Pilot: AYEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!! (*splat)
999000: My HO is better than yours...

[captain1ma]

999000 could have changed the course of WW2 singlehandedly.


as for german tactics, this might help

Initially, head-on attacks were conducted with a flat angle of attack but this made judging the range to the target very difficult. German pilots were initially intimidated by the Fortress’ 104 ft wingspan. The urge to open fire from too far away and the breakaway too soon for fear of collision looming large in the gunsight was overwhelming. Further refinement of the tactic showed that the optimum angle of attack when approaching from head-on was from ten degrees above the horizontal, what American bombers crew’s came to call "12 O’clock High." This greatly simplified the problem of estimating range and permitted a constant angle of fire similar to ground strafing.

http://freepages.military.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~josephkennedy/German_Pilot_Perspective.htm

[Jappa52]

(Notice HOing WAS used in WWII . . . .)

I hope this was typed with sarcasm....

[Bino]

From reading Lundstrom's The First Team, I understood "overhead pass" to mean something very similar to a Split-S: 1.) begin from a point well above and slightly out in front of the target flying in the same direction as it, 2.) roll inverted and pull until pointed nearly straight down, 3.) make a 90-degree deflection shot from directly above the target.

...
Anyway, does anybody know exactly what that was?  Is it just diving down from above? Straight above?  From behind and above?  In front and above?  I googled the term but couldn't find any description of it . . . . was wondering if anybody else knew exactly what constituted the "Navy overhead gunnery pass?"

[Vinkman]

Range: 999!!! They're Going To HO You!!
999000: (*stares) Idiots...
Enemy Pilot: MWHAHAHAHAHH
999000: (*stares) Pulls Trigger
Enemy Pilot: AYEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!! (*splat)
999000: My HO is better than yours...

A good buff gunner has no proplem killing any fighter on any attack run so "angles" can be over rated, except against a noob who can only make a dead 6 o'clock shot.

Ho-ing can be an excellent tactic for killing buffs, because killing the pilot is waaaaaaaaay easier than killing the Lanc, or the B-17.  Start shooting at 1.5K and be sure to be breaking hard in two axis by 800yrds. Danger is you may pass close to buffs. Good news is you will be traversing the gun solutions at very high speeds. If you make it to the convergence cone inside about 800, you are toast.  

p.s. Yes the convergence point is 500yrds, but the divergence of bullets beyong the 500 mark is still narrow enough that most of the buff's guns will be inside the winspan of most fighters. outside of 800yrds the number starts dropping off quickly.

With the HO, one burst can kill any buff. That's very hard to do if your are trying to kill the plane itself unless you are packing heavy cannons. (110, 410, K4, mossie, etc...)

[RTHolmes]

as for german tactics, this might help

Initially, head-on attacks were conducted with a flat angle of attack but this made judging the range to the target very difficult. German pilots were initially intimidated by the Fortress’ 104 ft wingspan. The urge to open fire from too far away and the breakaway too soon for fear of collision looming large in the gunsight was overwhelming. Further refinement of the tactic showed that the optimum angle of attack when approaching from head-on was from ten degrees above the horizontal, what American bombers crew’s came to call "12 O’clock High." This greatly simplified the problem of estimating range and permitted a constant angle of fire similar to ground strafing.

now that is interesting - its exactly the tactic I settled on after trying every different attack, and for the same reasons. its also what I tell our new guys to do when attacking buffs. they generally ignore me and sit on the low six of course, but you can only try