Author Topic: F4U turn performance, flaps, the real plane, etc (discussion)  (Read 22921 times)

Offline Bodhi

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Re: F4U turn performance, flaps, the real plane, etc (discussion)
« Reply #45 on: August 28, 2012, 12:47:41 PM »
Not quite. I've been specific in other posts. I was being generic in that one post.

I've pointed out several areas where it needs improving. Not enough torque-induced yaw, can't really spin it, far too docile a stall, and way too controllable in the stall. The plane holds E like it's got a a storage canister filled with E behind the pilot's seat (that's a joke, just so you know, don't want you to take me too literally here).

Overall it's a pale comparison to the real thing and actual historic combat tactics and reports. Its handling is not at all where it used to be, but people ignore that it's different because they want it to be better (glossing it over so as not to hurt their favored ride).


Krusty, the argument for tourque induced yaw could be made for every aircraft in here except the P-38.  You can easily put the F4u into a stall and it can be a very nasty spin, again, although that argument could be made for every airplane in here.  I disagree on E retention.  If you start turning it bleeds E quickly and takes a high to regain it.

Look, you obviously have an axe to grind on the F4u, but at least get some facts to back it up.
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Offline bozon

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Re: F4U turn performance, flaps, the real plane, etc (discussion)
« Reply #46 on: August 28, 2012, 01:46:43 PM »
there is no contemporary quantitative data that I know of for aircraft behaviour at the edge of and beyond controlled flight. in the same way as there is none for eg. directonal stability. which is completely understandable - we are looking at the point where the nice simple equations describing the aircraft's behaviour break down into chaos. even today with the help of supercomputers accurately modelling behaviour just outside of the envelope is impossible.
...
I don't know that Hitech does any subjective adjustments to make the aircraft fly as differently as they do but I'll take his version over a player's impressions of how they should "feel" to the player.

As far I know, HTC model the planes individually and calculate their behaviour at different conditions, then tabulate it and use interpolation for the real time game. They adjust their models to agree with the empirical data of official documents, but what happens at conditions other than the ones tested and reported in the documents is entirely up to their modeling.

You will not find any contemporary documents with accurate measurement of what happens during tails slides or accelerated stalls, only test pilot reports and impressions. Modelling is possible when the flow is coming from the right direction and in low angle of attack. Then, element by element calculations can work. But what do you do with a plane falling backwards? How much lift and drag does the wing element provide if the trailing edge is flying forward? What happens in high angle skids where the flow is going diagonally over the wing, thus the effective profiles of the wing along the flow lines are completely different than the "NACA" standards and change with skid angle and other parts of the plane are suddenly in the way (like fuselage).

The "normal flight conditions" modelling of most sims are pretty good. HTC has done a lot of work to achieve decent modeling even a little outside the "normal conditions", but extreme conditions are anyone's guess - and guess they must. The game is doing SOMETHING when you stall one wing while skidding in full engine torque with flaps out.

Now, my feeling is that HTC is doing the best unbiased model that they can and take what the calculation gives. There were cases in the past when they were not pleased with some of the results and they were changed. In 2002 AH1, the F6F had a nasty accelerated stall, while the F4U was a stable as a rock. After many complaints HTC had a FM revision and the behaviour has been switched. Was this the unbiased result of the improved mathematical modelling or was there some hand-made tweaks under the hood of the model engine?
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Offline hitech

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Re: F4U turn performance, flaps, the real plane, etc (discussion)
« Reply #47 on: September 01, 2012, 10:07:23 AM »
Bozon over the years, Would have to look at revision history to tell you specifics, we have added things to the model that are added to all planes but have the most effect on some specific planes.

Things like wing taper,wash out /twist, how control surfaces effect the L/D and CM. How many points are sampled on the air foiles, How the vortex is shaped and calculated.

And the real pain is still finding more then a few good references to airfoil extreme AOA diagrams I.E. 30 - 180 deg.

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Offline dirtdart

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Re: F4U turn performance, flaps, the real plane, etc (discussion)
« Reply #48 on: September 02, 2012, 09:31:38 AM »
A point to consider is the no-risk flying of a cartoon plane.  Was there a pilot kicking flaps out at 300 feet, inverted, then gear, to bleed E in a fight with a xxxxx type of bad guy airplane?

Is this a could not, or no one had the "cojones" or madness to try?
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Offline sparow

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Re: F4U turn performance, flaps, the real plane, etc (discussion)
« Reply #49 on: September 02, 2012, 11:23:52 AM »
A point to consider is the no-risk flying of a cartoon plane.  Was there a pilot kicking flaps out at 300 feet, inverted, then gear, to bleed E in a fight with a xxxxx type of bad guy airplane? Is this a could not, or no one had the "cojones" or madness to try?

That may be the right answer. No one would risk death. It was not a game. But I still feel strange when I "hover" in a F4U, dancing with my rudder... I have a lot of fun but I suspect that this is not quite right. I don't say it is impossible, I just say it's improbable. But then, all planes are easy here... ;-)

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Offline Chalenge

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Re: F4U turn performance, flaps, the real plane, etc (discussion)
« Reply #50 on: September 03, 2012, 01:17:33 AM »
Another thing to point out is the instantaneous speed in which gear extend. I think the effects of extending and retracting gear would not be so advantageous if they operated at a more realistic speed. Thus my wish on sequences in the wish forum (plus wanting to have more time in which a sound could represent the movement).

I doubt very much that the aces that survived combat bye using this trick would have recommended it as a training exercise for rookies either way.
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Offline Krusty

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Re: F4U turn performance, flaps, the real plane, etc (discussion)
« Reply #51 on: September 03, 2012, 02:02:23 AM »
Look, you obviously have an axe to grind on the F4u

Not so. Axe to grind? No. This is nothing personal. I also find the way certain other craft behave to be undesirable as they do not reflect real world performance at all. This is just one of the most glaring examples. Start with the larger problems, and improve them. The F4U flight model (specifically how it handles, docile stalling, spin resistance, low speed handling with and without flaps, etc) is extremely unrealistic.

It's not JUST an issue of "lack of fear of death" either, because there are examples of the plane being flown at slow speeds, such as on final approaches, landing, taking off, where the handling is noted and the excessive torque could and would flip the plane over before you knew it. The in-game models are definitely way more "easy mode" than they used to be.

Offline danny76

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Re: F4U turn performance, flaps, the real plane, etc (discussion)
« Reply #52 on: September 03, 2012, 02:13:02 AM »
This sequence of films might be pertinent to this discussion. One part describes the stall:-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5J0BYq3yevs



What I find most interesting here is just how convoluted the start up and take off procedure is and how we are spared in game the rigmarole of adjusting myriad controls before we can 'up'.
I have a few hours in various types, mostly in Piper Warrior but also in Chipmunks and as a passenger only in various military types and all seem less involved than this.
Whilst I would enjoy the immersion of all these requirements it would need to be on a toggle otherwise a vulchers wet dream would be realised as 15 guys sat at the end of the field flicking levers and switches as all the t&p's get into the green. :huh
Also I doubt my budget would stretch to the 4 multi throttle quadrants required for realism. :bolt:
« Last Edit: September 03, 2012, 02:14:50 AM by danny76 »
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Offline save

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Re: F4U turn performance, flaps, the real plane, etc (discussion)
« Reply #53 on: September 03, 2012, 02:32:40 AM »
Would be interesting to implement full torque in an test environment, many high powered planes would suffer much.
Right now I'm using more rudder in my 80hp EuroCub than I do in an 109 on take-off.
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Offline hitech

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Re: F4U turn performance, flaps, the real plane, etc (discussion)
« Reply #54 on: September 03, 2012, 07:54:24 AM »
Would be interesting to implement full torque in an test environment, many high powered planes would suffer much.
Right now I'm using more rudder in my 80hp EuroCub than I do in an 109 on take-off.


It already is "Full" torque.

Offline RTHolmes

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Re: F4U turn performance, flaps, the real plane, etc (discussion)
« Reply #55 on: September 03, 2012, 08:02:30 AM »
um ... dont you use ailerons to counteract torque, and rudder to counteract asymetric thrust? :headscratch:
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Offline nrshida

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Re: F4U turn performance, flaps, the real plane, etc (discussion)
« Reply #56 on: September 03, 2012, 08:30:18 AM »
What I find most interesting here is just how convoluted the start up and take off procedure is and how we are spared in game the rigmarole of adjusting myriad controls before we can 'up'.

Yup, and also in flight. The pilot really was the engine management system as well. Magnetos, fuel tank selection, trim, cowl flaps, supercharger setting, mixture, electric sunroof position,... and he had to navigate, and work a complex radio, and keep up his SA.

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Offline Wmaker

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Re: F4U turn performance, flaps, the real plane, etc (discussion)
« Reply #57 on: September 03, 2012, 08:37:11 AM »
Bozon over the years, Would have to look at revision history to tell you specifics, we have added things to the model that are added to all planes but have the most effect on some specific planes.

As I understand it, it was the last global flight modelling change which happened in 2006 where the F4U's stall speeds got seemingly reduced. As I never had the old version in conjuction to the current one, I didn't test it.

The version notes here:

Version 2.07 Changes
======================

Made several changes to the flight model affecting static thrust, propeller slipstream effects,
ground effect, flaps and slats.  This affects all planes to one degree or another.  Due to this change, the
table that controls combat trim had to be redone for all planes.


http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,173569.0.html

After the release I recall Pyro saying that he thought there might have been some inconsistancies in the change that he thought needed to be wed out but it looks like nothing came of it. I couldn't find the exact quote but I think it was this sub forum.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2012, 09:21:58 AM by Wmaker »
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Offline save

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Re: F4U turn performance, flaps, the real plane, etc (discussion)
« Reply #58 on: September 03, 2012, 10:41:27 AM »
When I read flight reports of late 109 and typhoon drivers had to be careful to apply throttle so you did not ground-loop the plane on takeoff.
I do not see this happening here. This might be true for more planes.

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Offline RTHolmes

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Re: F4U turn performance, flaps, the real plane, etc (discussion)
« Reply #59 on: September 03, 2012, 10:51:32 AM »
they didnt have autotakeoff ...


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