Operation Market Garden

[Slate]

Well, all these points have been made before, I haven't seen anything new, from you either..
Hindsight??? Well, Monkey was the "Field Marshal", and one would think looking at the map
he could SEE THE OBVIOUS..

Sun Tzu, called it "foresight", you would think a "Field Marshal" would have it..
But Monkey was too busy Glory hunting, trying to be the first into Germany..
Got lots of elite troops killed for his vanity..

Truly, he isn't the only general that did that in the war.. Lots of others!

   Ego! Indeed The Title speaks for itself. Jumping too far ahead of your supply lines and support.

[zack1234]

"British Arrogance" is disrespectful.

Films in America are used as educational  tools irrespective and factual evidence.

The General Mark Clark note was a retort to the disrespct shown in said thread.(what did he do?)

"Patton" was one of the few films which tried to attempt to be historical.

I don't refer to films for historical education.

While in the attic looking for my "Normandy To The Baltic" book I found a old ST290, the book is very good as well, contains some excellent maps.(12 corp,30 corp,8 corp)(1st airbourne div etc

Books:)

(I also found my Cromwell book by John Buchan)

Wikiaidiot

[zack1234]

The battle of Arnhem had been designed to gain us quickly and at  relatively cheap cost a bridgehead beyond the Rhine(or Waal) and Lower Rhine(or Neder Rijn).It had to be taken with resources which left very little margin for insurance of success in view of the remarkably rapid recovery of the enemy.

The battle of Arnhem was nighty per cent successful. We were left with in posssession of crossings over four major water obstacles including the Mass and the Waal, and it proved a vital factor in the subsequent development of operatoins, culminating in crossing the Rhine. Full success at Arnhem was denied us for two reasons; first, the weather prevented the buildup of our airborne forces in the battle area; second, the enemy managed to effect a surprisingly rapid concentration of forces to oppose us.

Bernard Law Montgomery K.GG.C.BD.S.O "Normandy to the Baltic " PAGES 148 ,149"

I have noticed with the Americans in threads are very reluctant to take criticism but willing to insult other nationalities.

"A Bridge too Far" or "Pearl Harbour"  were films made to make money for film companies and nothing else as a piece of educational material they are poo.

[Banshee7]

I was not trying to start anything with this.  I simply stated what the assignment was and asked for your opinions.  That is all.

#S#



Josh

[zack1234]

Highlights the high esteem films have in the American education system

[pembquist]

I'm not a student of military history but from my dilettantes perspective it seems like the ratio of successful to inept commanders is something like 1 to 3. I suspect this occurs for two reasons; the first is that the skills to get the job are not necessarily the skills to do the job, the second is that it is hard to tell except in retrospect whether the balance of traits like aggressiveness to recklessness is good or not.  The question I would ask is if failures like Market Garden or Korea (I recommend The Coldest Winter) are inevitable which is why you'd better be d... careful about going to war.  US Grant's greatest attribute was his willingness to fight and use up lives. This got the job done, would he have been a great general in ww1? or would he have been one of the incompetents? Similarly MacArthur is considered a great general of ww2 but his arrogance led to the Korean disaster. The landings at Inchon could be considered a gutsy master stroke or excessively risky, history's treatment depends a lot on the outcome not the risk involved. If Market Garden had been a success would it be another Great Battle or would it be considered reckless and unnecessary.

[pembquist]

I just wanted to add that if we look at intelligence reports now we know whether they are accurate where as at the time you would not know that and one of the traits of a successful commander is to make decisions despite incomplete and contradictory information.  The question of being right or wrong seems like it is more about art than science and probably a dose of luck. I would say it might take a smidgen of arrogance to send people off to die on the basis of your intuition and on the other hand if you wait around for everything to be clear you will have lost.

[guncrasher]

may i remind everybody that the paper is supposed to be on what happened in the movie and based on the movie only.



semp

[Slate]

Highlights the high esteem films have in the American education system

  John Wayne is our Greatest Combat Veteran. 

[zack1234]

 John Wayne is our Greatest Combat Veteran.  

James Stewart 

[Shuffler]

The Operation would have been more successful had John Wayne led it.

[Butcher]

The Operation would have been more successful had John Wayne led it.

What about Al Pacino?


Then again don't think there was enough coke in Europe to handle him..

[guncrasher]

  John Wayne is our Greatest Combat Veteran. 

yeah too bad he only fought in the movies.  he actually never served.


semp

[Tupac]

More german resistance than initially known. I suspect it would have succeeded had there not been 2 divisions of crack troops there.

[Slate]

What about Al Pacino?
(Image removed from quote.)

Then again don't think there was enough coke in Europe to handle him..

More german resistance than initially known. I suspect it would have succeeded had there not been 2 divisions of crack troops there.

   Crack Troops no good?