Film Analysis (a humble question to the experts)

[Nath[BDP]]

After a 6 year hiatus I returned to AH in July.  I last flew in late 2005, prior to the 2.07 patch which apparently changed many flight characteristics.  I'm no expert on physics, my knowledge of aviation ends at history and aircraft specs. 

I did fly AH for a long time and I feel like I had developed a good sense for what aircraft perform like on the edge, in game. 

I would like to preface this by saying that I'm not making a judgement on whether this is accurate or not, I'm merely curious as to hear what's behind it.  It wasn't do-able before I stopped playing in 2005.

The Maneuver, if I can even call it that since it's so easily executed as to require little or no skill once understood, seems to be a aircraft's departure of the flight envelope and rapid changes of nose angle when there's a sharp positive elevator input and an application of rudder opposite of the direction of engine torque.  It is done at and below stall speeds, typically under 220 IAS depending on plane.  It's doable in most late war, high powered aircraft with a lot of torque.  The P47 probably does it most exceptionally followed by the 109K4, Ki84, and some others.  It's tactical use is limited to close in fights and forcing overshoots because it allows you to both change nose angle rapidly and bleed energy extremely quickly.  There is very little effect on forward momentum as speed returns to normal once you 're enter' the normal flight envelope.  It's very hard if impossible to enter a spin. 

The best example is film, therefore:

Films:

The first were done offline and the third is an actual combat encounter with a P47 using this 'move' and me countering with a similar effect in the K4.  Seems like one can essentially slide the nose to the right laterally with rudder and throttle management, as if there's some kind of thrust vectoring in the rudder itself.

http://john-sanderson.com/files/Aces%20High/nath/flop/k4flop.ahf

http://john-sanderson.com/files/Aces%20High/nath/flop/p47%20flop.ahf

http://john-sanderson.com/files/Aces%20High/nath/flop/47%20vs%20k4.ahf


I'm curious! 

Thanks,

Nath

[FLS]

That's basically a snap roll, also called a flick roll. When you do it from the vertical you can get a nice reversal but it's slow and not energy efficient.

If you enter near stall speed you will naturally be at about the same speed when you are flying again. If you enter at high speeds you will slow down very quickly and resume normal flight at a lower speed.

[Nath[BDP]]

I'm not "rolling" the aircraft.  The whole thing is pivoting around laterally (sideways).  

p.s. did you watch the film?  The text doesn't really describe it well.

[pervert]

If you enter it at a higher speed and hold the rudder on full the entire plane will spin for a while in increasingly larger circles. best way to watch is trail view offline or in the DA.

[Sunka]

That's basically a snap roll, also called a flick roll. When you do it from the vertical you can get a nice reversal but it's slow and not energy efficient.

If you enter near stall speed you will naturally be at about the same speed when you are flying again. If you enter at high speeds you will slow down very quickly and resume normal flight at a lower speed.

This is what i see..at least with the on line film,turn on trail markers and you see your rolling,at least from what i could tell.

[FLS]

I'm not "rolling" the aircraft.  The whole thing is pivoting around laterally (sideways).  

p.s. did you watch the film?  The text doesn't really describe it well.

It's just called a snap roll. One wing stalls first and from level flight the aircraft rolls. When you change the gravity vector the aircraft behaves differently.   

[pervert]

Although you cannot see the rudder movements in the film, I believe Naths question may be more to do with the 109s rudder authority pre post update? 

[Nath[BDP]]

I feel like I pretty much understand the concept behind a snap roll, but just to be sure I watched several videos on youtube, and yeah, none of them show the nose of the aircraft twisting around to the opposite direction almost instantly.

[Nath[BDP]]

Although you cannot see the rudder movements in the film, I believe Naths question may be more to do with the 109s rudder authority pre post update?  

It's not only the 109 that can do this.  But yes, as in the OP I note that it is induced with rudder and elevator input, not so much aileron.

[Chalenge]

Its called "out of control" which with a lot of other things in the game are not realistic because the pilot cannot feel the effects. Just to point out a few things outside of this that are also not realistic is the engine off/on which in the real plane would require a lot more effort and time. Gear out and in time is very short in the game and also not realistic.

So you can see this is just another 'special' move that makes AH and our combat 'gamey' as all daylight.

[Shane]

I didn't watch teh film, but think I know what you mean. I saw it a lot with some hot 109 sticks, and lepape can do it in a jug... watch this youtube vid at the 1:20 and 2:12 marks...

With the 109's tho' I generally saw it occur more during a merge on the 2nd pass and occasionally in a rolling scissors.

I guess many planes can utilize it to the extent one practices maintaining control.

I found it a tad on the <meh> side as a move, but, yanno...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SX73JT3o4GM

[mechanic]

This used to be alot f fun to try in the old spit mkV, I remember practicing it in the TA but rarely did it ever prove usefull in a fight. Also I experienced some real life tumbles in a pitts and boy I would not like to do that kind of thing in combat. The head **** and physical disability even a mild tumble induce is alarming. The more real life flying i experieced the less gamey i found my virtual flying became.

however, it does look very cool. Krupinski does it perfect in a 109 in this vid

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBgHv_GgAW0&list=FLDv2N2eCgvVdlHAq_SzSUZg&index=17&feature=plpp_video

[Shane]

yeah, that.

[pervert]

Despite looking small the 109 has a very good rudder authority, there was a video knocking around skip holmes I think who flys it says the yaw with rudder is unreal. I would be interested to know how the top of the rudder sticking out the opposite side affects airflow compared to a more normal straight rudder arrangment. The rudder is semi WW1 DR1ish. Perhaps the remodelled FM just shows this up now?

[Nath[BDP]]

Those vids above look like the same thing I'm asking about and looks pretty much dead same in my films.

Look how the nose pivots around.  Almost resembles a Sukhoi cobra.