Author Topic: Ground target nonsense and other things.  (Read 1872 times)

Offline wulfie

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Ground target nonsense and other things.
« on: March 05, 2001, 04:45:00 AM »
I think lazs has a point about the ability to *easily* remove a field's ability to roll defending fighters.

It's way too easy to suicide in and keep fighters from rolling at a field. You constantly see the argument that 'realism fanatics' and their ideas would ruin the game for 'action freaks' (2 min. between sorties minimum, cannot take off from the same airfield twice within a 10 min. period, etc.) but doesn't the reverse hold true as well? I mean, how fair is it to allow 1 kamikaze in any aircraft that can carry a bomb to shut down *all* fighter operations at an airfield.

Yes, I know lazs is not a realism fanatic. But the above described 'problem' affects his ability to find action.

The biggest problem is that ground targets are too easy to find, and are too well known.

I don't know what type of frame rate hit it would cause, because I am in no way a programmer/coder, but what if each airfield had 30 AAA positions. Now only 10 of them would be active at a time, but you wouldn't see a gun at the position *until it started firing*. And when a destroyed gun 'respawned' it would respawn at a new and 'hidden' location (i.e. one of the 30 positions, but again no gun would be visible until it started firing).

For some real realism, AAA emplacements shouldn't all have a nice visible emplacement. Some of them should only be spottable by their gun flashes. WW2 aircraft didn't really ever pull off SEAD missions.

I like the same idea for aircraft availability, but use revetments instead of hangars. 12 revetments at a field. 8 are active, 6 being fighter revetments and 2 being bomber revetments (or 4 and 4, etc., etc., etc., whatever). Once all 6 are knocked out, no fighters can roll. Once one of those revetments has respawned (at a new 'hidden' revetment, see above) fighters can again roll.

Basically, make guys really have to 'knock a field out' to 'knock a field out'.

For what it's worth, I had the same experience as eagl. Spent tons of time looking for a fight. 2 or 3 times I told lazs where a big fight was brewing and by the time he'd landed he couldn't roll at any of the 3 fields closest to the action.

A well coordinated FB strike and/or a well coordinated/escorted level bomber strike should kick the toejam out of a field. But 1 B-17 shouldn't be able to shut down the ability of 3 airfields to roll any fighters at all, at least in my opinion.

Mike (wulfie from WB)

Offline wulfie

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Ground target nonsense and other things.
« Reply #1 on: March 05, 2001, 04:51:00 AM »
Ah and 1 more thing...how about AAA *will not fire* when there are friendly aircraft within a certain distance of the AAA position? Or the airfield itself?

One of the dumbest things in WB and AH is the lack of risk someone takes when dragging an enemy into a battery of 10+ AAA guns.

The above 'fix' might be hard to do. How about instead that AAA guns have a slight chance of considering a friendly aircraft to be a hostile one? There are potential problems with takeoffs and landings, but I'll try and think up a fix for those.

Blue on Blue incidents were a hell of alot more common in WW2 than they are today.

Mike (wulfie from WB)

Offline wulfie

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Ground target nonsense and other things.
« Reply #2 on: March 05, 2001, 04:56:00 AM »
duh double post!

[This message has been edited by wulfie (edited 03-05-2001).]

funked

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Ground target nonsense and other things.
« Reply #3 on: March 05, 2001, 05:34:00 AM »
It takes more than one bomb to kill a hangar.  It takes about 2000 lb for a vehicle hangar and 3000 lb for an aircraft hangar.  The rebuilds are very quick.


Offline Saintaw

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« Reply #4 on: March 05, 2001, 05:41:00 AM »
What Funked said + "BANZAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAI !"  
Saw
Dirty, nasty furriner.

Offline CavemanJ

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Ground target nonsense and other things.
« Reply #5 on: March 05, 2001, 07:33:00 AM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by wulfie:
Ah and 1 more thing...how about AAA *will not fire* when there are friendly aircraft within a certain distance of the AAA position? Or the airfield itself?

One of the dumbest things in WB and AH is the lack of risk someone takes when dragging an enemy into a battery of 10+ AAA guns.

The above 'fix' might be hard to do. How about instead that AAA guns have a slight chance of considering a friendly aircraft to be a hostile one? There are potential problems with takeoffs and landings, but I'll try and think up a fix for those.

Blue on Blue incidents were a hell of alot more common in WW2 than they are today.

Mike (wulfie from WB)

if friendly ack hits yer kite it WILL kill ya.  A version or two back there was a bug that would let you basically walk around on A1 immune to the ack, and you would get the kills as the base ack destroyed anyone who tried to spawn and kill you.  The bug's been fixed, but the ack is still lethal to the friendlies if it hits'em.  But with the laser tracking the risk is greatly reduced.

lazs

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Ground target nonsense and other things.
« Reply #6 on: March 05, 2001, 08:15:00 AM »
Well.... i am a "realism" fanatic..  I like realist flight models and gunnery.   That's usually about as far as it goes.  

In this case tho... I can use the gameplay or the "realism" club.   How "realistic" is it to kill a building and then say  "can't take off here our carport fell down"??  Sheesh... every field layed out the same with the same (cough) "strat" elements???   Why not have a more realistic revetment based fighter availability?  Why can't a field be restocked from another field (land there and now they got one plane).

One of the main reasons I don't do strat is simply that it is so lame in the (any) sim.  War of the fields?  War of the buildings?  destroy some buildings and win the game?  The biggest "strat" element in the game is to deny the other team a place to take off.   And what does this accomplish???  It means that if you are successful.... You don't have anyone to fight!   The best laid stategic plans result in clubbing an undefended field to deth or simply..... ENDING ALL THE ACTION THAT IS CLOSE.   A whole field is no longer usable becaus a couple of buildings are flattened????  It's lose lose for me.  

but wait... It get's better... In order to make such a lousy strat system even work... You have to make the bombers crewed by one or two people so that they can lone suicide buff and then... They have to be able to hit an ack every time with a single bomb from 20-30K.  
lazs


Offline Drex

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« Reply #7 on: March 05, 2001, 08:21:00 AM »
3000k between two fighter hangers will destroy both.  1 b26 can shut down fighter operations in a hurry.

Drex

Offline Ripsnort

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« Reply #8 on: March 05, 2001, 08:30:00 AM »
A alittle history, over the last 1.5 years, HTC has experimented with various re-build times and LBS' of bombs to destroy them...trial and error seems to have worked out the best solution, which is implemented today in the Main arena.

lazs

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« Reply #9 on: March 05, 2001, 08:45:00 AM »
rip... using hangers to make fighter available is the problem.   Making the harder or softer is not much of a solution.  Ther is no visual clue.   Up or down.   Revetments would make fields all different, interesting and provide for gradual and realistic closure.  
lazs

Offline Ripsnort

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« Reply #10 on: March 05, 2001, 08:47:00 AM »
Agreed Lazs, I was speaking in terms of what we have today, as the code stands.

Offline Mox

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« Reply #11 on: March 05, 2001, 09:23:00 AM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by lazs:
Well.... i am a "realism" fanatic..  I like realist flight models and gunnery.   That's usually about as far as it goes.  

But you don't like bombs that really blow somethings up? LOL!

 
Quote
Originally posted by lazs:

How "realistic" is it to kill a building and then say  "can't take off here our carport fell down"??  

You can't park your car in your carport if it's not there, can you?  

I like the idea of being able to resupply a field but you wouldn't fly a cargo plane anyway, thus you'd be relying on us strat players to fix a base for you so your mindless, directionless, furball could continue.  

Mox


Offline AKDejaVu

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« Reply #12 on: March 05, 2001, 09:29:00 AM »
I've never seen the downing of a hangar equate to no fighters in the area. Hot pads have been added to assist in rearm-refuel.  Hangar downtimes have been reduced to 15 minutes.

Taking down fighter hangars prevents constant instant respawning.  I guess nobody recalls what a problem this was in the past.  No matter what direction you look, the game will be played based on its allowances.  Right now, a country has a 15 minute reprieve for whatever reasons based on downing a hangar.  That seems fair.

The enemy also has several options.  They can grab altitude and down the heavy fighters (easy targets), they can grab even more altitude and down the bombers (a little more difficult) or they can just re-arm/re-fuel on the hotpads.  They can take more than 15 minutes of fuel up for a sortie.

The main complainer(s) in this debate seem to not want to do any of the above.

I've not seen anyone capture a base because they took a fighter hangar down.  I've not seen anyone gain an advantage from taking a fighter hanger down.  I have seen a fighter hangar go down as 15 enemy planes roll in and completely suppress the area.  In that situation does it matter how hard it is to take down the hangar?  Not really.

I also question the use of the phrase "easy to take down a hangar" especially in regards to fighters.  I question how often anyone making that statement has attempted it.

So.. before lazs comes in and says I'm not contributing to the discussion, I'll ask this question: "Why are the hangars so 'easy' to take down, and why was that change necessary?"

AKDejaVu

Offline ra

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Ground target nonsense and other things.
« Reply #13 on: March 05, 2001, 09:35:00 AM »
<<WW2 aircraft didn't really ever pull off SEAD missions.>>

I don't know what is meant by 'pull off' but WWII aircraft often suppressed ack by strafing.  Many of the planes you see with huge batteries of machine guns in their noses were used for such missions (Beaufighters, A-26's, B-25's, etc.).  I've also read of accounts of fighter bombers doing the same, looking for signs of light AA and diving down to spray the area.

ra

lazs

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« Reply #14 on: March 05, 2001, 11:26:00 AM »
mox... i got nothing against bombs that blow things up... The problem is... The "gunnery" for these bombs needs to be accurate..  The bombs also need some targets.  see what I mean?  

deja...why don't you just say.... "I like things the way they are and no matter what lazs says I will be against it.  I have no ideas of my own but I don't want anything that lazs may think up.  In fact i wouldn't know a good idea if it bit me in the ass."   You can save everyone a lot of trouble by just printing that as your sig.   You have no ideas of your own.  You contribute nothing unless you consider saying that "everything is fine", contributing...   You continue to tell me and others that we are having an easy time finding a fite....   You have no idea of what what we are finding.  

As for simply refueling and rearming when the hangers are down... That does not apply to someone just logging on.  All he sees is that some dipshit has bombed nothing but the fighter hangers for any field that is close to the action.

There is nothing "realistic" about what we have now.  The strat has nothing to do with realism and is at best gimicky and silly.   For a lot of us it has nothing to do with simulating WWII air combat so is a waste of our time.   If you wish to participate in it that is fine but it would be nice if everyone had something that they considered fun/worthwhile to do.  
lazs