It occurs to me, RE: perked weapons loadoutsssio

[Krusty]

So we've all heard about the perked ord idea that isn't in AH yet. The idea is that things like the C-hog would perk the weapons loadout and not the plane. The Plane would be the standard F4U-1D which is perk free, but when you choose the 4x20mm loadout it would require a perk.

There's been hypothetical discussions including perking 1K eggs on P51s and so forth, some good, some not so good.

However, something occurred to me. This would require the ENY of a plane be tied to the weapons package.

A C-hog should rightfully have a much lower ENY than a 50cal-armed hog. It catapults the plane into a perk-worthy bracket. It also needs to be limited sooner if ENY limits kick in. This also made me think of other loadouts that are NOT perked...

C.205, for example. What if the ENY was tied to the weapons load? Standard ENY for the 2x20mm, but maybe when you choose that 2x7mm gun option it matches the C.202's ENY instead? Perhaps the F4F4 and P-51Ds with only 4 guns have a slightly higher ENY number than the 6-gun counterparts? I'm not talking double or anything, but something that reflects your efforts when you earn perks.

Other planes that have loadouts that vary drastically:

P-40s, 2/4 guns, standard/high ammo count; P-51Ds 4/6 gun; P-47s*; Bf109G14 (30mm vs 20mm, vs gondolas); Fw190s (with and without outboard guns); I-16 (20mms vs MG only); IL2 (37mm vs 23mm).

Planes that in the future might have such different loadouts:

F4U-1D (20mm/50cal); Hurr2 (IIB vs IIC); Ki61 (MGs vs cannons), Ju87D (20mm vs 7mm); 110G2 (4x7mm vs 2x30mm).

It seems to me the existing mixes listed all would be worthy of different ENY ratings, ranging from small to large variations. Also we have the potential in the future to add weapons options to certain airframes which round them out more but also vary widely in effectiveness.

So the thought I have come to makes me think: ENY should be tied to the weapons load, rather than just airframe. I have thought about it a bit and I do not think this should apply to expendable ords, only internal weapons such as guns. While I think some expendable ords are debatably perk-worthy, I think in any hypothetical event like that the perk itself should be the cost, and not include an ENY change.

Thoughts?


* = even when the 100% unhistorical overload ammo option is removed, there is still a big difference between 6 and 8 guns

[WWhiskey]

As a jug driver, the perk loads for me were more along the lines of. High octane fuel, extra turbo boost , paddle props, in other words, field mods, bubble canopies and the like.
I think on planes already in the stable, why remove them? The f4u-c  already exists, why change that?
 Maybe I am misunderstanding your idea tho.

[Krusty]

First, you cannot add different engine performances or configurations as hanagar options. This from HTC. Each needs its own plane. And no field mods.

Second, HTC has mentioned several major versions back they were working on the perked ord option to (I'm guessing here) streamline the hangar list when redundant options could fit on 1 airframe. Specifically it was discussed with regards to the C-hog. The F4U-1C is no different in horsepower, configuration, or other features. It only has a different weapons setup. That setup makes all the difference and makes it a perk plane.

My thoughts were on the topic of the second point above. Just "merely" perking the ammo load doesn't solve the entire problem. ENY has to change at some point as well.

[Motherland]

As a jug driver, the perk loads for me were more along the lines of. High octane fuel, extra turbo boost , paddle props, in other words, field mods, bubble canopies and the like.
I think on planes already in the stable, why remove them? The f4u-c  already exists, why change that?
 Maybe I am misunderstanding your idea tho.

HTC was really intent on rolling the F4U1-C into the -D with the perked ordinance system. They were so sure it was going to happen that they didn't update the c-hog when the rest of the corsairs were updated, but obviously something pretty major with the system fell through and they did end up updating it many versions later.
Honestly, considering that they did update the C-Hog however long ago, has there ever been any confirmation that the perked ordinance system is still on the table?

[Krusty]

The only reason the C-hog was updated to new standards was because a certain individual was exploiting damage model bugs in it repeatedly and consistently. Rather than remove said player from the game, they removed the exploit (basically -- they updated the model).

That doesn't mean the perked ord is off the table. I beleive it will be here eventually. I think they just realized the chog couldn't wait til then.

[Debrody]

I just cant get your point. My bad, sorry.

[SmokinLoon]

Only HTC knows how and why they assign the ENY/OBJ figures they do.  I've studied them all and compared aircraft abilities far and wide.  I would think that HTC would assign an ENY value based on the extreme ability of every category an aircraft can have.   

The fact that the only downfall of taking up a P51D with 1k bombs instead of 500 lb bombs is a tad bit slower climb rate (not to mention the 6 rockets), and that there is no reward or off set for taking more challenging ordnance, is sort of a drag.  But again, I do believe HTC is not in the business of restrictions, only providing. 

If HTC didnt want to mess with perking the ordnance or gun load outs, then at minimum I hope they take another look at the ENY and OBJ scores.  I'm still flabbergasted that a player can earn more perks using a B17 than a Ju88.  The *only* advantage the Ju88 has over the B17 is 600lbs worth of 50 kg (110lbs) bombs.  That is it.  There are a whole host of aircraft not accurately represented in the ENY and OBJ category.  My opinion, of course.

[bustr]

We don't even have the option to fly the HurriC with only 2 cannon.

[Butcher]

I have this weird feeling but I sort of agree with Krusty's logic here. Ord/Gun packages should have different eny values all together. For example on the P51-D you should spend perks having the bombs/rocket mixture, however for the 109g14 sake of the arguement - the ENY should be lowered if you take the 30mm option rather then the 20mm. Fact is on a snapshot you only need to land 1 tater to kill a fighter with a 30mm, 20mm however it won't down a fighter.

Standard armament for the P-47 is a classic example, very few 47s flew with 425 rpg. Instead of perking this, make it a lower ENY, standard ENY would be the 267rpg.

Its not going to change the balance of the game, the P-47 isn't a perk plane, however the armament factor is.
However, I tend to stick to historical values, Aces High does not follow these lines - HTC needs to make money, there is a balance of arcade and simulator/historical values. We have ICONS for a reason, the learning curve is already to steep. To keep it simple HTC is balancing the game best he can.
Look at the P-47-d11 ENY, if we start perking the gun package, who does it effect? the 12 people who actually fly it? But then again it still won't make sense if you force someone to take a 2x 20mm version La-7 vs a 3x20mm La7.

I still want to exend the ENY system from 40 to 60, however this is an entirely different argument and one I have seen have clear sides of it. My reasoning is simply to reward players who fly OLDER planes, while Aces high is still dominate in the Late War Arena.
Call me stupid but I have more fun trying to land 2 kills in a p40 then 2 kills in an La7, while most newer players try to land 2 kills in a La7, it took me years to learn, with a larger ENY system it allows more tweaking of this perk options.

[Tilt]

ENY could just be a matter of Maths that produce a number based upon the components used.......... Same thing with perks required to be deposited.

[bustr]

I have this weird feeling but I sort of agree with Krusty's logic here. Ord/Gun packages should have different eny values all together. For example on the P51-D you should spend perks having the bombs/rocket mixture, however for the 109g14 sake of the arguement - the ENY should be lowered if you take the 30mm option rather then the 20mm. Fact is on a snapshot you only need to land 1 tater to kill a fighter with a 30mm, 20mm however it won't down a fighter.

Standard armament for the P-47 is a classic example, very few 47s flew with 425 rpg. Instead of perking this, make it a lower ENY, standard ENY would be the 267rpg.

Its not going to change the balance of the game, the P-47 isn't a perk plane, however the armament factor is.
However, I tend to stick to historical values, Aces High does not follow these lines - HTC needs to make money, there is a balance of arcade and simulator/historical values. We have ICONS for a reason, the learning curve is already to steep. To keep it simple HTC is balancing the game best he can.
Look at the P-47-d11 ENY, if we start perking the gun package, who does it effect? the 12 people who actually fly it? But then again it still won't make sense if you force someone to take a 2x 20mm version La-7 vs a 3x20mm La7.

I still want to exend the ENY system from 40 to 60, however this is an entirely different argument and one I have seen have clear sides of it. My reasoning is simply to reward players who fly OLDER planes, while Aces high is still dominate in the Late War Arena.
Call me stupid but I have more fun trying to land 2 kills in a p40 then 2 kills in an La7, while most newer players try to land 2 kills in a La7, it took me years to learn, with a larger ENY system it allows more tweaking of this perk options.

The I16 will become the new uber perk farmer. Heck, that would cry for an I15, Gladiator and Cr.42 just to drive newbies in ponies nutz and scarf perkies.

[Krusty]

HTC needs to make money, there is a balance of arcade and simulator/historical values. We have ICONS for a reason, the learning curve is already to steep.

That's a very bad troll.

[Kweassa]

That's a very bad troll.

Unfortunately, a valid one. I loved this game when I had to leave it 2 years ago. When I came back today, and studied forums/posts as to see how much has changed over the years, I'm very sad to say the game is almost exactly in the same condition since the day I left it -- and that's actually a bad thing.

Flightsims are a very minor genre in the world of games. In my heart, I support the realism/hardcore approach of HTC over any dumbed-down and relaxed feature game any day. But unfortunately, we are a dying breed.

The high, intensive realism is already a deterrant for some of the more recent, younger customers. If we want to reel them in, we need something that appeals to them. At this point, finding something that's OK for the old-fans, as well as appealing to the new potential customers, would be something that needs serious attention.


(ps) like... after 2 years, they still didn't change the low-texture hit sprites, explosions... not even basic pixel shading/bloom for tracers... and we're living in a world where Windows8 will be going live soon, and PCs that perform around 8 times more faster and powerful than the ones we had 5 years ago....

Let's hope for the best.

[Hap]

Feel so dimwitted as I read this thread.  What's to be gained if HTC adopted Krusty's suggestion?

[Kweassa]

Feel so dimwitted as I read this thread.  What's to be gained if HTC adopted Krusty's suggestion?

Well the suggestion itself has merit -- provided it is implemented in the right way.

Actually, it's not even an original one -- I distinctly remember coming up with basically the same idea, way back, when I was active. Even then, some people before me also had similar ideas, so it's a lingering thought.


For one thing, it could provide a more cleaner, intuitive approach to plane selection -- provided that it comes with a more simple and clear-to-grasp interface. Instead of the long list of planes given at the hangar, the plane types can be more easily simplified into categories, with a more clear presentation style concerning the evolution of planes. As old fans, we don't need to be told which planes are more advanced or which planes have better gear.

Most of us old guys already memorize all of the gazillion Spits, Bf109s, P-51s, etc.. and ALL their variants and even their performance specs, but for the more lighter, casual players, being confronted with that monstrous list of choices with so little information can be a baffling thing.