AWACS Refueling Close Call

[Puma44]

Do you have any real world experience as either a tanker or a receiver? 

So?

[Mar]

You don't have to look at the sky, the ground clearly shows the tanker was pitching when it shouldn't have.

[Puma44]

Anyone here a current or former tanker pilot or boomer?

[RTHolmes]

nope, but I'm with you on this Puma. forget the horizon you can use the landmarks at the bottom of the frame to watch the tanker's attitude changes. the AWACS is plainly the aircraft taking the rollercoaster ride there. very scary for both crews.

[colmbo]

The sky I am talking about is not hazy. It is clear blue when you can it. Of course you can't contiunually see it because the camera platform is moving.


When I first watched it I thought the AWACS was poorly flown.

After another poster noted the sky..... well that changed everything.

In any event none of us were there and felt any G forces at work. Close call.

I have no time givin or gettin fuel in flight but do have some time in close formation.

The AWACS certainly appears to be overcontrolling, however the tanker did pitch down about before the big drama point -- and it looked like that pitchdown coincided with the AWACS coming up.  Perhaps the auto-pilot disconnected causing the slight pitch-down of the tanker  (the tanker DID pitch-down, very evident if you watch the horizon).

[Devil 505]

nope, but I'm with you on this Puma. forget the horizon you can use the landmarks at the bottom of the frame to watch the tanker's attitude changes. the AWACS is plainly the aircraft taking the rollercoaster ride there. very scary for both crews.

Even watching the ground, the pitch change of the tanker is clearly evident.

[flight17]

Your all wrong... Clearly they lost another one to ditech...


But it looks like to me the tanker was in a slight climb after the boom disengages. At that point the AWACS is till trying to catch the taker. When the tanker levels, the AWACS continues to climb up towards the 135 until it dives away.

If you watch as the boom breaks away, there is a lake that is right underneath the left side of the plane. If you mark where it is in the screen right before the boom disengages and once the AWACS dives away, the total Travel distance looks to be where it should be due to the forward travel during the elapsed time.

[Shifty]

Anyone here a current or former tanker pilot or boomer?

I had a boomer kick me in the butt once when I fell asleep on one of the cushions in the boom pit of a KC-135 back in 1982.
If that counts for anything I'll be glad to give my expert opinion. 
I was on a hop out of RAF Fairfield heading to Pease AFB NH. He had some A-10s to refuel and didn't want me flopping into his view.
He said I could stay if I was awake but if I was going to sleep I needed to go somewhere else. I decided to watch the show and take
a few pictures. 

[Puma44]

OK, Shifty, since no one else will ante up, you're our designated expert in tanker/receiver affairs.   

Guys, another thing to consider:  when the tanker pilot heard the "go,go,go" he/she pushed the power up, probably to MIL with the tanker on autopilot in order to escape the impending contact.  So with a relatively fast increase in airspeed, what will the 135 do, assuming nothing else has changed?  Well, except for the AWACS trying to mate with it's rear end.

What say ye O Shifty of knowledge?   

[guncrasher]

OK, Shifty, since no one else will ante up, you're our designated expert in tanker/receiver affairs.   

Guys, another thing to consider:  when the tanker pilot heard the "go,go,go" he/she pushed the power up, probably to MIL with the tanker on autopilot in order to escape the impending contact.  So with a relatively fast increase in airspeed, what will the 135 do, assuming nothing else has changed?  Well, except for the AWACS trying to mate with it's rear end.

What say ye O Shifty of knowledge?   

it doesn't mater what you think they 135 should do.  anybody can be a Monday night quarterback on Tuesday.

semp

[Puma44]

it doesn't mater what you think they 135 should do.  anybody can be a Monday night quarterback on Tuesday.

semp

No one is Monday night quarterbacking, just discussing.  Take a deep breath, turn around, and walk away.  You obviously don't want to participate in the discussion.

[guncrasher]

No one is Monday night quarterbacking, just discussing.  Take a deep breath, turn around, and walk away.  You obviously don't want to participate in the discussion.

I thought for a second there you would say something like "be a victim  or be a survivor".


semp

[B4Buster]

I showed this to a former Air Force KC-135 friend of mine (avionics to be exact). He said aircraft being refueled put pressure on the aft of the tanker. Normally, the boom operator will call "disconnect" so the pilot can anticipate the change in flight characteristics. My friend thinks that the boom operator did not announce disconnect and that the pilot corrected for the unexpected "weight" being lifted from the aft of the aircraft, thus causing a pitch change.

I hope nothing was lost in translation...that is what I understood form our conversation anyway.

[Puma44]

I showed this to a former Air Force KC-135 friend of mine (avionics to be exact). He said aircraft being refueled put pressure on the aft of the tanker. Normally, the boom operator will call "disconnect" so the pilot can anticipate the change in flight characteristics. My friend thinks that the boom operator did not announce disconnect and that the pilot corrected for the unexpected "weight" being lifted from the aft of the aircraft, thus causing a pitch change.

I hope nothing was lost in translation...that is what I understood form our conversation anyway.

As an avionics technician, your friend was most likely not a qualified tanker air crew member and may not have a complete understanding of how it actually transpires.  Please give him a hearty thanks for his service.  

The receiver is not "pushing" on the tanker, unless the receiver exceeds physical boom limits in which case the tanker pilot may feel it.  The receiver is flying formation with tanker, approaches the pre-contact position, stabilizes, and is then cleared to the contact position by the boomer.  The boomer then flys the boom to the reciever's AR receptical and plugs in.  As long as the receiver pilot maintains the sweet spot in the boom envelope (splitting the green apple) there is no push on the tanker because the two aircraft are simply flying a stable formation with each other and connected by a somewhat flexible boom.  In the original thread video, the AWACS pilot appears to have exceeded the lateral boom limit, causing a brute force disconnect.

The tanker is typically on auto pilot at a constant airspeed and altitude in order to provide the most stable platform possible for the boomer and the receiver pilot to work with.

[icepac]

The tanker pitched up first before the drastic pitch down.

The boom disconnected when it ran out of telescoping range of motion.

Yes, the awacs got too close but tanker moved long after any connection was broken.