Author Topic: I Predict the Next Plane HTC Brings Forth Will Be...  (Read 11311 times)

Offline Wmaker

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Re: I Predict the Next Plane HTC Brings Forth Will Be...
« Reply #225 on: October 29, 2012, 08:48:10 AM »
That is what I am wondering about, and why I originally asked the question.  Granted, its all in-game personal observation, but I have seen the P-47N catch fire many times (also a wet wing design) but I can't recall ever seeing a Brewster burning.   Of course I'm sure I have many more 47N kills than kills of the Brewster - I find the Brewster a very tough fight against the planes I usually fly.   I won't draw any conclusions from my experience alone, but if everyone has noticed the same thing, it may indicate a problem somewhere.

Well, the Brewster that I've been flying has been caught on fire several times. Too many times to remember individual cases. I've had both wing tanks caught on fire but usually the fire originates from the fuselage. The funny thing is that the worlds sole remaining Brewster the BW-372 was set on fire due to the hits on the fuselage which punctured the collector tank. There's no wall between the tank and the engine so the hot cylinders ignited the fuel.

On the other hand, many times I've shot both wing tanks from A6Ms leaking but no fire broke out. And most on this thread seems to think it goes up right away. *shrugh* And I don't really have any problem with that either.

One thing I've noticed which seems to apply to all planes is that when you hit a tank which is already leaking it ignites basically every time.

All I've seen is really just global stuff which applies to every plane. But that is just me telling my observations.


As a general comment,

If someone thinks something is wrong, then do a test if you think you can find something conclusive. I personally doubt it very much and thus don't see the run one myself. Quite frankly everyone who has even given a slightest hint that something maybe wrong should have ran a test first before even mentioning anything. And that applies to all planes and a possible issues with them.
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Offline oboe

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Re: I Predict the Next Plane HTC Brings Forth Will Be...
« Reply #226 on: October 29, 2012, 09:30:42 AM »
Wmaker,

I agree with you that personal observations are of limited value.   And I note that you have witnessed what I have not - the Brewster being set on fire.   I think you have much more game time than I do flying that fighter, so I also accord your observations relatively more weight than mine.

Incredible about BW-372 being set on fire - and if so, it is lucky to still remain intact today, is it not?   The pilot was able to land with a fire on board?  Or some how extinguish the fire?   Its sounds like a harrowing story for any flyer.   But interesting that AH's DM seemed to represent the collector tank fire in your observations.

Curious, what would be the best way to test a hypothesis regarding fuel fires in the B-239, P-47N, A6M2, etc?  If offline drones are used, do they have the same damage behavior as in game planes?   I'm not sure if HTC tweaked the DM of offline drones for the purposes of practice.   I'm not sure I know enough to design a valid test that could give consistently reproducible results.


Offline Wmaker

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Re: I Predict the Next Plane HTC Brings Forth Will Be...
« Reply #227 on: October 29, 2012, 02:00:09 PM »
Incredible about BW-372 being set on fire - and if so, it is lucky to still remain intact today, is it not?   The pilot was able to land with a fire on board?  Or some how extinguish the fire?   Its sounds like a harrowing story for any flyer.

Mr. Pekuri managed to ditch the fighter into North Karelian lake behind the lines and managed to just barely dive under film of burning gasoline on the lakes surface. After he got to shore he momentary 'passed out' from exhaustion. He had too much speed as he came in but with the plane on fire he didn't really have a choice but to fly the plane into the lake and that is the reason why the plane initially flipped over before stopping. So yes, it is very lucky that the plane was in so good condition when it was found. Mr.Pekuri, while of course showing an excellent piece of flying, was very very lucky to survive.

Ironically, one could say that had the plane survived the war it wouldn't be around today but would have been scrapped one way or another shortly after the war.

The burn marks on the surface of the yellow cowling are quite evident in this picture by Vladimir Prytkov. Mr.Prytkov with his crew lifted the plane from the lake.


http://www.virtualpilots.fi/feature/artikkelit/bw372-esitelma/


But interesting that AH's DM seemed to represent the collector tank fire in your observations.

Well, I just thought of it as ironic curiosity that the plane seems to ignite mostly from the fuselage. Personally I don't think the points of ignition or their frequency is modeled in anyway per plane basis but are more generic in nature.


Curious, what would be the best way to test a hypothesis regarding fuel fires in the B-239, P-47N, A6M2, etc?  If offline drones are used, do they have the same damage behavior as in game planes?   I'm not sure if HTC tweaked the DM of offline drones for the purposes of practice.   I'm not sure I know enough to design a valid test that could give consistently reproducible results.

I would just start by getting a friend to DA and use a single GV mounted .50 and see what happens, have observations and go on in devising a controlled test from there on. I haven't really done any damage model testing so gaining more experience would be the first thing I'd do.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2012, 02:05:10 PM by Wmaker »
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Offline Wmaker

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Re: I Predict the Next Plane HTC Brings Forth Will Be...
« Reply #228 on: October 30, 2012, 11:34:10 AM »
Mainly because Brewster were not a very good company to deal with, their factory was very chaotic and not able to produce enough planes. To make matters worse Brewster reps sold planes to just about every foreign power they could which annoyed the Navy brass no end.

The early Wildcat was considered an inferior plane to the early Buffalo, but then the Navy started specifying more armour etc, which meant more weight. This meant adding powerful engines, which were in turn heavier. Grumman were able to update their design to cope with this better than Brewster. The Buffalo suffered from landing gear failures as its weight increased where the Wildcat didn't. The final nail in its coffin was that the Buffalo's fuel tanks were integral to the wing structure, rather like the Betty bomber's. This made it much harder to add self sealing fuel tanks than to the Wildcat.

The early lightweight Brewster we have is a more maneuverable plane than the heavier F4F-4 which has more guns, armour and  the weight of a folding wing mechanism to lug around. The earlier F4F-3 would do better, as it was a lighter with the same power.

Now that it's middle of the week instead the end of one I'll add a couple things...

As Greebo explained Brewster Corp. wasn't exactly a well managed company. Brewster Corp's separate selling organization called Miranda Brothers was a source of problems. They had been found guilty of illegal arms trade in the spring of '40 although that particular incident wasn't connected to Brewster Corp. As Greebo largely said, this selling organization made the Co. of the Brewster Corp. sign deals which they didn't have the production capacity for. As the orders and the company grew fast they took on labor force which was bit on the shady side and due to this even sabotages occurred. In one of these incidents F2A-2's arrestor hooks had been deliberately weakened. I'm sure you can imagine that something like that didn't exactly add Brewster's points in the eyes of the Navy.

All the above happened largely after the Brewster which AH was delivered to Finland.

Then there were the technical problems which made F4F better suited Naval fighter:

- Brewster's landing gear didn't withstand carrier use well. They tended to collapse quite easily and the fact that the take-off weight kept creeping up with the later variants didn't exactly help either. This wasn't a simiilar problem when operating from land bases. There were couple gear collapses in Finnish use but not many.

- The wing was a single piece unit with a single continuous spar. When damaged it was very hard and slow to repair and it really could not have been made foldable without more or less complete redesign.

- Those self sealing tanks which already have been mentioned.

- F4F was more rugged airframe and based on my experience that is the case in AH. Again, only my subjective view regarding the matter. If someone doubts it, you can test it.

- Twin wasp generally was more favored as the fighter engine over the Cyclone in the US military circles.


So next time some of you wonders why a certain plane was replaced by another one in certain country's certain military service branch, try to bare in mind that in real war and life there are few more factors involved than which can turn inside which in an 2012 air combat simulator's main arena.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2012, 11:46:39 AM by Wmaker »
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Offline W7LPNRICK

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Re: I Predict the Next Plane HTC Brings Forth Will Be...
« Reply #229 on: October 30, 2012, 11:41:49 AM »
 :furious I have banned myself from having an opinion as punishment for voting for the ME-410..."I'm not worthy!"  :bhead   :noid
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Offline Sunka

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Re: I Predict the Next Plane HTC Brings Forth Will Be...
« Reply #230 on: October 30, 2012, 01:34:33 PM »
:furious I have banned myself from having an opinion as punishment for voting for the ME-410..."I'm not worthy!"  :bhead   :noid
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We all make mistakes,fly special events your decision making will more more clear without MA clogging your brain.
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Offline oboe

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Re: I Predict the Next Plane HTC Brings Forth Will Be...
« Reply #231 on: October 31, 2012, 01:26:59 PM »
Here is one of the handful of remaining single-engine fighter aircraft that would not be a hangar queen a week after its introduction to the MA I think.

   

Would look pretty good in the AH sky.   It would likely reduce the number of N1Ks you see about, but you wouldn't be any safer.  Climb rate is very good at about 3800 fpm. Carries the same armament as the George, 4 wing-mounted Type 99 20mm cannon and its 10mph faster at around 380 mph.  It has never done well in community voting though.   Was designed by the same guy who designed the A6M.

Offline Krusty

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Re: I Predict the Next Plane HTC Brings Forth Will Be...
« Reply #232 on: October 31, 2012, 01:34:39 PM »
Didn't a number have 2 cannons and 2 MGs? Might distinquish it a bit more from the N1K2 we have?

But, yes! That would be a good addition to the game.

Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: I Predict the Next Plane HTC Brings Forth Will Be...
« Reply #233 on: October 31, 2012, 01:43:23 PM »
Didn't a number have 2 cannons and 2 MGs? Might distinquish it a bit more from the N1K2 we have?

But, yes! That would be a good addition to the game.

The J2M2 Model 11 had that gun package.

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Offline Wmaker

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Re: I Predict the Next Plane HTC Brings Forth Will Be...
« Reply #234 on: November 01, 2012, 12:49:38 PM »
Here is one of the handful of remaining single-engine fighter aircraft that would not be a hangar queen a week after its introduction to the MA I think.

    (Image removed from quote.)

Would look pretty good in the AH sky.   It would likely reduce the number of N1Ks you see about, but you wouldn't be any safer.  Climb rate is very good at about 3800 fpm. Carries the same armament as the George, 4 wing-mounted Type 99 20mm cannon and its 10mph faster at around 380 mph.  It has never done well in community voting though.   Was designed by the same guy who designed the A6M.

Raiden would be a lot of fun!

It could reduce the numbers of the N1K2 but not because of performance. Two of the J2M3's four cannons are same rather weak Type 99 Model 1 cannons which can be found from the A6M2 for example. The other two are the same as N1K2's Model 2 cannons but as N1K2 has four of them. As mentioned J2M2 had two Model 2 cannons and two rifle calibre mgs. Also the 380mph figure is for the J2M5 with 3-speed supercharger (only 43 J2M5s were built), J2M2 speed was very close to the N1K2 at 370mph. I'd certainly enjoy Raiden a great deal, much better looking airplane than the N1K2.

EDIT/Mixed up the production numbers./EDIT
« Last Edit: November 01, 2012, 01:07:39 PM by Wmaker »
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Offline Sunka

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Re: I Predict the Next Plane HTC Brings Forth Will Be...
« Reply #235 on: November 01, 2012, 06:10:56 PM »
Here is one of the handful of remaining single-engine fighter aircraft that would not be a hangar queen a week after its introduction to the MA I think.

    (Image removed from quote.)

Would look pretty good in the AH sky.   It would likely reduce the number of N1Ks you see about, but you wouldn't be any safer.  Climb rate is very good at about 3800 fpm. Carries the same armament as the George, 4 wing-mounted Type 99 20mm cannon and its 10mph faster at around 380 mph.  It has never done well in community voting though.   Was designed by the same guy who designed the A6M.
I like it..right after we get the HE 111.
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Offline palef

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Re: I Predict the Next Plane HTC Brings Forth Will Be...
« Reply #236 on: November 01, 2012, 06:47:39 PM »
How about a Zwilling and and Me 321?
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