GM's new motor series ..the LT1 ??

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

Powdered metal will not be a problem in my opinion. Sintered metal is used alot in gears.

We have laser cut sheets of it for oddball parts.

The high pressure fuel pump will be cam driven and under the intake. Presumably to cut down on it's noise. Odd place but ok.

Direct injection works great on diesels and you can push a lot of power out of them.

Definitely a wait-n-see on this engine.

Powdered absolutely sucks for connecting rods. The first thing we do with high performance and racing engines is take the powdered metal connecting rods and put them in the nearest scrap metal receptacle.

As I posted above, direct injection on gasoline engines just plain sucks.

[RTHolmes]

its not a race engine though is it? 85bhp/l or whatever it is, is a pretty good base for a mass production engine with decent economy and service intervals. you could build a reliable 100+bhp/l engine with titanium conrods, forged pistons etc etc but not many would buy one. porsche have been doing it for years but only a very small % of customers want the GT3 where the engine is 1/2 the cost of the car.

[eagl]

Please, please, please, don't bring back the optispark   .  I still doubt anything new will have the flexibility of the current LS, but time will tell.

The article specifically mentioned that the computer coding will be harder to crack/mod/tune.  Thanks Govt Motors.  F&&% you very much.

[eagl]

i wouldn't call 450hp from a 6.2 liter "big horsepower", considering that the stock 5 liter in the boss302 is 444 this year, and next years will be 450.

Yea.  Especially since they went out of their way to make it harder to tune for aftermarket mods.  Great way to instantly lose to Ford.

[CAP1]

Yea.  Especially since they went out of their way to make it harder to tune for aftermarket mods.  Great way to instantly lose to Ford.

 well, i think ford did the same thing. when they went to the coyote engine, they changed the computers strategy. some tuners didn't know about that, and that's how those engines got the reputation for melting #8 piston.

 none of them wants it to be easy to mod these engines.

[Skuzzy]

The controller Ford sells for the Coyote is pretty flexible.  But then you have to be able to find aftermarket parts.  

Right now, about the only thing you can get is a blower.  The controller is easily configured for that, as long as you have the tools, which is true of anything when you want to mod an engine.

There are a couple of companies working on aftermarket fuel injection systems for the Coyote.  Cams are coming as well.

It looks like the Coyote is going to be well represented in the aftermarket.  Ford has been aggressively pushing the Coyote, which helps a lot.


On the new GM motor, I find it interesting they provide for a mechanical fuel in the manner they are doing.  I am not aware of any mechanical fuel pump that can provide the pressure needed for a cylinder direct injection fuel system.  Not sure what the thinking is.

[CAP1]

The controller Ford sells for the Coyote is pretty flexible.  But then you have to be able to find aftermarket parts.  

Right now, about the only thing you can get is a blower.  The controller is easily configured for that, as long as you have the tools, which is true of anything when you want to mod an engine.

There are a couple of companies working on aftermarket fuel injection systems for the Coyote.  Cams are coming as well.

It looks like the Coyote is going to be well represented in the aftermarket.  Ford has been aggressively pushing the Coyote, which helps a lot.


On the new GM motor, I find it interesting they provide for a mechanical fuel in the manner they are doing.  I am not aware of any mechanical fuel pump that can provide the pressure needed for a cylinder direct injection fuel system.  Not sure what the thinking is.

 cams are here already. i think(but not sure) that other stronger internals are too. there's nitrous kits too. i think it was street driven, nitroused 2013 that ran mid/low 9's at atco, putting a trailered camaro back on its trailer to take the finals of the quick 8 at atco's mustang vs camaro.

 could that cam lobe that they labeled as a fuel pump drive have something to do with phasing the injectors? and then still use electric pumps for the high pressure fuel?

 i think i owe an apology to ge.......sorry sir. i didn't mean to hijack yer thread.

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

its not a race engine though is it? 85bhp/l or whatever it is, is a pretty good base for a mass production engine with decent economy and service intervals. you could build a reliable 100+bhp/l engine with titanium conrods, forged pistons etc etc but not many would buy one. porsche have been doing it for years but only a very small % of customers want the GT3 where the engine is 1/2 the cost of the car.

It is an engine that WILL be raced, and abused. The rods and pistons are a liability. The additional cost of forged rods and pistons is minimal. Especially if you're buying them in mass volume. I not only build race and high performance engines, I also work part time for a tier 1 supplier to most U.S. OEM's (including Nissan and Toyota U.S. plants), and I have a full time job as a quality support tech, meaning I see what screws up on new cars.

Powdered metal rods fail regularly in engines that size at 6000 RPM and over 400HP. It is painfully common. This is supposed to be a Corvette and Camaro high performance engine, the cars sell for at least $32K. They can afford to spend $200 more on the engine. That is about what it would cost them to step up to better parts. In the low volume I buy at, I can move to a forged steel rod for under $200 more, and a forged piston for under $200 as well. At their volume, I'd be surprised if it cost them more than $150 to do it. I know exactly how hard they squeeze their suppliers.

[LCADolby]

6.2 litre engine  450bHP... Anyone else think that that is a poor showing for such a high cc?

[zack1234]

I thought GM was bankrupt?

[icepac]

A. It does not make "big horsepower".

B. With less than 210 degrees duration on both lobes, and 116 lobe separation angle, overlap is not a problem.

C. Direct injection has resulted in massive problems with carbon/sludge build up in the entire intake tract, but especially the lower part of the intake, the intake port in the cylinder head, and the intake valves. It kills performance, and drives emissions thru the roof. I'm actually tasked with this problem as a contract tech for a major OEM.

I'm also a contract tech. and master diagnostic specialist for a major OEM who has been using direct injection for years...........lexus.

So what make do you work with that has direct injection and what models are you talking about?

Do the direct injected cars you work on also have indirect injectors?

Are they using variable valve timing to achieve EGR?

I seem to remember delco and other manufacturers needing to create a product to combat the carbon of many GM, ford, nissan, toyota, and chrysler engines long before any had produced a single direct injection gas engine.

I remember working on early 80s Z cars at the dealership (in the early 80s) with carbon up the intake all the way to the throttle body.

What I am saying is that I don't believe that direct injection is responsible for something that was a problem decades before direct injection engines were released by most all manufacturers.

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

I signed an NDA as part of the contract, I'm not going to post any names.

Suffice to say it is a major world wide OE, with a base line and a luxury line. Just this week, we ran a few tests on products to remove the deposits, with varied success. Yes, there is a major difference, and yes, it is a major problem.

Yes, GM developed their top engine cleaner decades ago. Now, even other OE's actually specify GM top engine cleaner for use to remove the deposits direct injection allows to build up. In fact, if I'm not mistaken, one of the TSB's we got the other day during this project was a Toyota TSB where they specified the use of the GM product.

When you stop spraying the back of the intake valve with gasoline blended with detergents, yet you still keep circulating both exhaust gases and blow by into the intake tract, you will have greater and more rapid deposit build up in the intake, in the cylinder head, and on the valves. It is a known problem, which anyone with common sense saw coming.

[icepac]

I have yet to see you in danger of revealing any trade secrets and I have yet to see a NDA that prevents one from saying who they work for if the discussion is not of that brand's products.

The basic physics of your claim should apply to all GDI engines so we can discuss the engines made by manufacturers other than your employer.

At lexus, they vary valve timing to induce EGR without needing a valve which means you are trading having carbon fill the passages of the egr hardware for having more carbon on the intake tract but that has nothing to do with GDI.

I also used to perform "de-carboning" of 280z cars at the dealership in the early 80s so this is nothing new.

I do agree that the powdered metal rods are not super strong for engines such as the LSA but they are fine for unsupercharged GM engines kept below 7200rpms and 600hp.

I just rebuilt one in a Hennessey V650 cadillac CTS-V and the rods ended up bending slightly rather than breaking when the owner somehow commanded a downshift that overreved the engine.

I also don't like they make the rod and cap as one piece and break it in half at the big end.

We went beyond the forged steel rods to titanium on this corvette that ran near 240mph or faster at kennedy space center last week.

The GT went significantly faster and the news should be out soon enough.

[CAP1]

i wish i still had the before/after pictures i'd taken of gm and ford engines through my borescope. all kinds of deposits on the backs of the intake valves.

[Rob52240]

Best use of that motor so far...