Author Topic: High Speed vs. Tight Turns  (Read 2629 times)

Offline Slade

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High Speed vs. Tight Turns
« on: October 25, 2012, 05:37:54 PM »
Hello,

Which plane have you found to turn the tightest at high speed below 15k?

High speed = say 400 mph+

My guesses are possibly P-51 or F4Us.


Thanks for your input,

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Offline Debrody

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Re: High Speed vs. Tight Turns
« Reply #1 on: October 25, 2012, 05:42:40 PM »
At 400+ the blackout is the limiting factor, not the stall. The one what can decelerate the fastest, turns the quickest, but also loses E the fastest.

Btw at 400-250mph, i would vote for the pony, due to its high speed flaps, but the difference is very minor.
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Offline Tank-Ace

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Re: High Speed vs. Tight Turns
« Reply #2 on: October 25, 2012, 05:54:37 PM »
P-47, 190, P-51, P-40, etc. all turn well at high speed.


However, as brody noted, at those speeds, you're either going to be limited by compression, or blackout.


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Offline Tracerfi

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Re: High Speed vs. Tight Turns
« Reply #3 on: October 25, 2012, 05:55:38 PM »
P-47, 190, P-51, P-40, etc. all turn well at high speed.


However, as brody noted, at those speeds, you're either going to be limited by compression, or blackout.



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Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: High Speed vs. Tight Turns
« Reply #4 on: October 25, 2012, 06:09:24 PM »
You can use the dive flaps in the P-38L to tighten up high speed turns.

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Offline colmbo

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Re: High Speed vs. Tight Turns
« Reply #5 on: October 25, 2012, 06:14:33 PM »
You can use the dive flaps in the P-38L to tighten up high speed turns.

ack-ack

How do the dive flaps help the airplane turn?
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Offline Drano

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Re: High Speed vs. Tight Turns
« Reply #6 on: October 25, 2012, 08:52:37 PM »
How do the dive flaps help the airplane turn?

At higher speeds the P-38's flap causes the nose to pitch up and this doesn't necessarily have to be in a dive for it to work. Of course, the pitch up effect diminishes as you might slow down. Using auto trim will also tend to negate the effect as auto trim will try to compensate for nose level.
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Offline RTHolmes

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Re: High Speed vs. Tight Turns
« Reply #7 on: October 26, 2012, 07:27:10 AM »
Typhoon, seems to be capable of pulling crazy amounts of lead at high speed :aok
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Offline SmokinLoon

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Re: High Speed vs. Tight Turns
« Reply #8 on: October 26, 2012, 08:38:15 AM »
At high speeds (350 TAS+) the 190A-5 and D-9 are not to be underestimated in the turn.

At the bottom of the pile at high speeds is the A6Mx.  It can't take the stress, but get it below 300 TAS and it can turn on a dime. 
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Offline Karnak

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Re: High Speed vs. Tight Turns
« Reply #9 on: October 26, 2012, 09:51:13 AM »
Unless the aircraft's controls get too heavy to pull a blackout at 350mph, as on the A6M series, all aircraft in AH turn the same at that speed.  A 6 G turn in a Spitfire Mk XVI at 350mph is exactly the same line as a 6 G turn in an Me410 at 350mph.  If the line was a tighter turn the Gs would be higher and if it were a looser turn the Gs would be lower.
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Offline titanic3

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Re: High Speed vs. Tight Turns
« Reply #10 on: October 26, 2012, 11:24:58 AM »
Unless the aircraft's controls get too heavy to pull a blackout at 350mph, as on the A6M series, all aircraft in AH turn the same at that speed.  A 6 G turn in a Spitfire Mk XVI at 350mph is exactly the same line as a 6 G turn in an Me410 at 350mph.  If the line was a tighter turn the Gs would be higher and if it were a looser turn the Gs would be lower.

Wrong, super Brewster turns at 20Gs.  :noid  :rolleyes:

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Offline Karnak

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Re: High Speed vs. Tight Turns
« Reply #11 on: October 26, 2012, 11:42:05 AM »
Wrong, super Brewster turns at 20Gs.  :noid  :rolleyes:
A 20 G turn would be a 20 G turn for all aircraft though.  I know you are joking, but it really is the pilot's G tolerance that limits it.


Heh: "A 20 G"
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Offline colmbo

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Re: High Speed vs. Tight Turns
« Reply #12 on: October 26, 2012, 12:18:33 PM »
At higher speeds the P-38's flap causes the nose to pitch up and this doesn't necessarily have to be in a dive for it to work. Of course, the pitch up effect diminishes as you might slow down. Using auto trim will also tend to negate the effect as auto trim will try to compensate for nose level.

But do the dive flaps allow a pitch angle that you can not achieve using elevator alone?  A turn is limited in game by blackout or stall.  If the elevator control can get you to either of those limits the flaps do not help you.
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Offline bozon

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Re: High Speed vs. Tight Turns
« Reply #13 on: October 26, 2012, 02:58:16 PM »
At max G (6) the instantaneous turn has the same rate of turn, but the flight path will be different due to loss of speed. Slower speed while still maintaining the same G load meas a smaller turning circle. At high speeds and G, due to the inability of the planes to maintain a flat turn at constant speed, the flight path does not look like a circle - it is more of a spiral like a snail shell.

The AH pilots are limited at 6G, so this is what the plane can maintain till the speed drops below the critical speed at which the plane cannot pull 6Gs anymore. From that point on, the limit is the maximum lift of the plane relative to its weight - generally this means that a low wingloading is preferable for maintaining the turn RATE. High wingloading means that in order to maintain the 6Gs, the planes needs higher AoA and hence it produces more drag - and slows down faster. At high speeds in unsustained turns, low wingloading is "wasted" since the wings are not producing their max potential lift anyway due to the pilot limits. And here comes the distinction between the turn rate and turn radius. The plane that can slow down faster will enjoy the smaller turning circle. The plane that can maintain 6Gs longer will enjoy a better turning rate over time. Who will "out turn" who depends entirely on the geometry of the battle. This is why high wingloading planes can still be good dogfighters - as long as the fight is at high speeds.

From the planes mentioned in the above posts, the P47 and Typhoon dump a lot of energy very fast in a turn. Responsive elevators, a dragy airframe and the ability to pull very high AoA without snap stalling are good features for this purpose. This means that they can pull a very tight "corner" (the shape of the flight path) without much rate-of-turn disadvantage, as long as the speed is high enough. But after 90 to 180 degrees, the have lost so much speed that they are now at a severe disadvantage against most planes if the turning continues and they cannot trade alt to gain speed again. However, that initial fast and tight turn can place them at an advantageous position for the next move. This is how Jugs can beat spitfires in a fight, but they have to kill it in 1 or 2 moves or they will become disadvantaged.

In R/L, jugs were designed to dogfight at high alts. There, the option to trade alt for speed is almost always open. This meant that the jug could pull one or two tight corners and then dive to regain speed before it got caught too slow to turn. At high alts dogfights did not typically involve very elaborate ACM. Pilots would try a move or two and if that did not go well, the next thing would have been a split-S and a screaming dive to the safety of the clouds. Jugs are kings of the all-or-nothing corners, fast to roll in the split-S and excellent divers - this is why they did so well up high in the ETO, in spite of being initially ridiculed as 7 ton milk jugs.
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Offline Ardy123

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Re: High Speed vs. Tight Turns
« Reply #14 on: October 26, 2012, 03:36:35 PM »
...
The jugs engine is what gives it its biggest adv at high alt. The monster turbo super charger is its saving grace... no other plane's performance curve tails off like the jugs (which is near linear).
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