Author Topic: Idiot pulls out in front of landing airplane  (Read 1637 times)

Offline CAP1

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Re: Idiot pulls out in front of landing airplane
« Reply #45 on: November 05, 2012, 09:17:13 PM »
not to be argumentative, but this was not an accident. it wasn't done deliberately, but it wasn't an accident. it was a collision that occurred due to several factors. the suv not stopping where she should have. the plane being too low. the suv driver not seeing the plane. the pilot not seeing the suv.
 the questions are why didn't the driver see the plane, or the pilot see the suv? why didn't she stop? why was the plane too low? those are the questions that need to be asked. but it is not an accident.
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Offline B4Buster

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Re: Idiot pulls out in front of landing airplane
« Reply #46 on: November 05, 2012, 09:28:35 PM »
not to be argumentative, but this was not an accident. it wasn't done deliberately, but it wasn't an accident. it was a collision that occurred due to several factors. the suv not stopping where she should have. the plane being too low. the suv driver not seeing the plane. the pilot not seeing the suv.
 the questions are why didn't the driver see the plane, or the pilot see the suv? why didn't she stop? why was the plane too low? those are the questions that need to be asked. but it is not an accident.

Look at the pitch angle the pilot was holding and try to imagine yourself in the cockpit and what the sight picture would look like...This really helped me visualize the whole event. Assuming the pilot was focused on a point further down the runway as he should have been, and not on the threshold, it is easy to see how the pilot could not see the SUV.

Now take into consideration a student pilot returning from a solo-XC (a big deal for a new pilot, knowing he is about to complete a huge part of his training), and knowing his landing is being filmed. You can imagine he was thinking about a bunch of different things at the time, maybe some he shouldn't have been so focused on. The brain can only process so much information before it starts to "ignore" things.

Had the pilot flown a proper approach to land at the proper point on the runway, an 18-wheeler could have been sitting there and he would not have hit it.
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Offline Golfer

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Re: Idiot pulls out in front of landing airplane
« Reply #47 on: November 05, 2012, 09:39:56 PM »
not to be argumentative, but this was not an accident. it wasn't done deliberately, but it wasn't an accident. it was a collision that occurred due to several factors. the suv not stopping where she should have. the plane being too low. the suv driver not seeing the plane. the pilot not seeing the suv.
 the questions are why didn't the driver see the plane, or the pilot see the suv? why didn't she stop? why was the plane too low? those are the questions that need to be asked. but it is not an accident.

You just defined what an accident is quite well.

An accident occurred. There's a chain of events leading up to it and you're discussing that chain. The accident chain...

It sure wasn't a "purpose"

Offline CAP1

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Re: Idiot pulls out in front of landing airplane
« Reply #48 on: November 05, 2012, 10:11:38 PM »
Look at the pitch angle the pilot was holding and try to imagine yourself in the cockpit and what the sight picture would look like...This really helped me visualize the whole event. Assuming the pilot was focused on a point further down the runway as he should have been, and not on the threshold, it is easy to see how the pilot could not see the SUV.

Now take into consideration a student pilot returning from a solo-XC (a big deal for a new pilot, knowing he is about to complete a huge part of his training), and knowing his landing is being filmed. You can imagine he was thinking about a bunch of different things at the time, maybe some he shouldn't have been so focused on. The brain can only process so much information before it starts to "ignore" things.

Had the pilot flown a proper approach to land at the proper point on the runway, an 18-wheeler could have been sitting there and he would not have hit it.
re-watching the clip, something doesn't look right about his pitch at that point. it almost looks like he's flaring too high and over that fence, although i could be wrong. with his nose up like that, i can see how he didn't see the suv now. when i watched it at work, i didn't use full screen.

 i may be being overly harsh, but i remember my first solo, as i mentioned previously. the only thing on my mind was flying my airplane, and doing it well. i had the same thoughts when i did my first cross country solo. i wanted to do everything right, and was concentrating on flying. not impressing someone, or being filmed, or anything other than not bending that airplane.
You just defined what an accident is quite well.

An accident occurred. There's a chain of events leading up to it and you're discussing that chain. The accident chain...

It sure wasn't a "purpose"

 believe it or not, from reading ntsb reports, and following those "accident" chains, is part of what's convinced me that they're not accidents. the pilot was too low. for whatever reason, he was. whatever that reason is/was, is part of the cause, even if it was simply inattention.
 the lady in the suv didn't stop. carelessness on her part(if she was familiar with that road). this is part of the cause.

 if it were a true accident, something unforeseeable, like a wing falling off of the plane, or a sudden, unforseen brake failure on the part of the suv......those would make it an accident.

 but i understand why they call them accidents though.
ingame 1LTCAP
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Offline pembquist

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Re: Idiot pulls out in front of landing airplane
« Reply #49 on: November 05, 2012, 10:45:00 PM »
Not trying to be a pissant but look at 2a:
Definition of ACCIDENT

1
a : an unforeseen and unplanned event or circumstance
b : lack of intention or necessity : chance <met by accident rather than by design>
2
a : an unfortunate event resulting especially from carelessness or ignorance
b : an unexpected and medically important bodily event especially when injurious <a cerebrovascular accident>
c : an unexpected happening causing loss or injury which is not due to any fault or misconduct on the part of the person injured but for which legal relief may be sought
d —used euphemistically to refer to an involuntary act or instance of urination or defecation
3
: a nonessential property or quality of an entity or circumstance <the accident of nationality>

Pies not kicks.

Offline crazyivan

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Re: Idiot pulls out in front of landing airplane
« Reply #50 on: November 05, 2012, 11:12:31 PM »
Two idiots don't make a right, or is it three; Who put that road there? From that google earth photo. How did the driver or passenger not see the plane when turning onto the road? Talk about timing was this a stunt gone wrong i wonder hmm?
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Offline eagl

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Re: Idiot pulls out in front of landing airplane
« Reply #51 on: November 05, 2012, 11:29:15 PM »
That's why we use the term "mishap" instead of "accident".  It covers the incident quite thoroughly without pre-judging anyone involved before the chain of events leading to the mishap is determined and examined.

That's why those with aviation instruction experience are focusing on why the student pilot chose to attempt a landing well prior to the beginning of the landable surface, including asking the question about the instruction given/received.  It may have been no accident at all that the plane was flown on that flightpath, which would make the pilot's actions (and possibly the instructor's instruction) a causal factor in the mishap.

« Last Edit: November 05, 2012, 11:31:19 PM by eagl »
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Offline Slash27

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Re: Idiot pulls out in front of landing airplane
« Reply #52 on: November 06, 2012, 12:21:06 AM »
Some bad juju at Northwest Regional over the past few months. 3 crashes at the airport and one from there that crashed a few counties away. 6 deaths if I'm not mistaken.



I responded out to this one. Guy walked away luckily.

Offline Widewing

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Re: Idiot pulls out in front of landing airplane
« Reply #53 on: November 06, 2012, 12:45:37 AM »
I think we can cut to the chase here...

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Offline -tronski-

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Re: Idiot pulls out in front of landing airplane
« Reply #54 on: November 06, 2012, 02:51:03 AM »
People will incur a RWY with working stop bars, guard lights, MAGS, and markings on a controlled airport - it is entirely feasible someone would drive their car on a service road that doesn't even run onto the paved strip. I doubt very much infringing the OLS is a primary concern for someone who doesn't know any better - And anyone who thinks someone could hear it before crossing the RWY end has never been in a modern SUV in front of a landing a/c - you wouldn't hear a 744 on short final until it was almost on top of you

However the road should have had at least proper warning signs before you enter near the RWY ends - the airside roads at work have observation warning signs about height restrictions and movement even on the ones that are more than 90m from the RWY end

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Offline bmwgs

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Re: Idiot pulls out in front of landing airplane
« Reply #55 on: November 06, 2012, 05:44:53 AM »
To question the actions of the pilot and his training is acceptable at this stage.  To cast guilt on the instructor at this stage is wrong.  

I have no doubt that safety is an extremely high priority in pilot training.  Because this pilot was a student, even I can understand that his instructor will be interviewed.  I do not understand how anyone could place blame on an instructor before any investigation and/or interviews.  

I have stated earlier that I am not a pilot or a flight instructor, but I do have experience in training where if my student was not properly trained I could be liable.  I accepted this because I knew that I provided the proper training and I followed all the training procedures while instructing.  If a flight instructor is liable for the actions of his student based solely on the student actions, then I don't see how anyone would put themselves or their family in such financial liability.  I still can not believe in flight training, guilt can be accessed on an instructor without any investigation.


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Offline Golfer

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Re: Idiot pulls out in front of landing airplane
« Reply #56 on: November 06, 2012, 06:08:50 AM »
Get over it.  This is an off topic section of a virtual airplane message board not an NTSB hearing.

Offline bmwgs

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Re: Idiot pulls out in front of landing airplane
« Reply #57 on: November 06, 2012, 07:08:45 AM »
Get over it.  This is an off topic section of a virtual airplane message board not an NTSB hearing.

Get over what????   Guess you missed the section title.   Let me help you out  "The O' Club, Open forum for off-topic and less serious discussions."

I was just enjoying a good debate.

Fred
« Last Edit: November 06, 2012, 07:21:38 AM by bmwgs »
One of the serious problems in planning the fight against American doctrine, is that the Americans do not read their manuals, nor do they feel any obligation to follow their doctrine... - From a Soviet Junior Lt's Notebook

Offline rpm

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Re: Idiot pulls out in front of landing airplane
« Reply #58 on: November 06, 2012, 08:14:12 AM »
One thing I think a lot of people are overlooking is that is a private road, essentially a long driveway that is not part of the airport nor is it on airport property. There were no Stop signs or Low Aircraft signs or any type of barrier to stop traffic because the owners did not erect any. That is the biggest contributing factors I see. Very poor planning that led up to this.

It actually reminds me of the airport in Placencia, Belize where the main road winds around the runway. But there they have signs, speed bumps, flashing lights and traffic control arms to stop traffic during flight ops.

Even in a 3rd World country they were smart enough to take preventative measures.
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Offline Shamus

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Re: Idiot pulls out in front of landing airplane
« Reply #59 on: November 06, 2012, 08:32:35 AM »
I look at this the same way I do an accidental shooting, you're not supposed to shoot things accidentally, if you do its your fault, don't run into things when you're flying a plane.

In the beginning I had a tendency to drag in the final, my instructor (a grizzled old B-17 pilot) used to yell at me about it all the time, then one day without a word he reached over and cut the throttle and sat there looking at me, that was the cure.

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