Idiot pulls out in front of landing airplane

[CAP1]

I look at this the same way I do an accidental shooting, you're not supposed to shoot things accidentally, if you do its your fault, don't run into things when you're flying a plane.

In the beginning I had a tendency to drag in the final, my instructor (a grizzled old B-17 pilot) used to yell at me about it all the time, then one day without a word he reached over and cut the throttle and sat there looking at me, that was the cure.

shamus 

 my instructor cured me of flying the patter too fat and sloppy by doing that.

[Wolfala]

Golfer, your post are informative, and I am sure you are a responsible flyer and instructor.  The only point I am trying to make is making an assumption that the instructor was at fault in this incident is wrong.  Your statement from an earlier post was "Student Pilot made a mistake, the instructor didn't teach him correctly.".  You are making an assumption based on a film.  You had no information as to whether this instructor did or did not properly instruct the student.  In other words you have already assessed guilt before any investigation.

If you are a flight instructor, how would you like to be judged solely by the actions of your student before an investigation was even completed. You even are making assumptions as to what the student pilot may say.  I don't know, since I am not at pilot, but maybe he made perfect landings with his instructor but when he went solo he froze up.   I am not arguing that the student pilot didn't screwed up, hell I am not a pilot and I can see that he did.  I can also see where the vehicle operator also shares some fault, but at this moment in time, I can not say the instructor is at fault until after there is an investigation and it is found that he did not instruct as he is suppose to.

Fred

BM,

Golfer and I are both high time instructors. I teach primarily in the Cirrus aircraft which has more or less taken over as the doctor killer reputation for the 21st century from the Bonanza. The simple fact is this: when you teach, you have the liability with you for your life. Its not fair - but it is what it is. Doesn't matter if the guy augurs in 5 or 10 years from now - you'll get dinged and your assets will be at risk without appropriate planning. Tort reform aside - student landing technique and clueless car drivers meeting is a toejam happens event. And everyones insurance will be suing each other - but majority of it is going to go on the Car - which is unfortunate because their assets will be directly at risk. Look both ways at a crossing folks.



 

[bmwgs]

BM,

Golfer and I are both high time instructors. I teach primarily in the Cirrus aircraft which has more or less taken over as the doctor killer reputation for the 21st century from the Bonanza. The simple fact is this: when you teach, you have the liability with you for your life. Its not fair - but it is what it is. Doesn't matter if the guy augurs in 5 or 10 years from now - you'll get dinged and your assets will be at risk without appropriate planning. Tort reform aside - student landing technique and clueless car drivers meeting is a toejam happens event. And everyones insurance will be suing each other - but majority of it is going to go on the Car - which is unfortunate because their assets will be directly at risk. Look both ways at a crossing folks.



 

I am not questioning your or Golfer experience, I am sure it is vast and the both of you are experienced pilots and instructors.  The thing I do have in common with the both of y'all is that I was also an instructor (not in flight training) where if improper or lack of instruction was made during training, I could be held liable.  

The point I am debating is, you can not place blame on an instructor without one bit of evidence.  Some in this thread were placing blame on the students instructor based on the film without knowing if the student was properly instructed or not.  No consideration that the student may have been properly trained and instructed.  The assumption being made is he must have screwed up because he wasn't properly instructed.  I have not seen or been shown anything that supports this assumption.  

I have no knowledge concerning flight training, but I do know this.  If the liability of a flight instructor is such that you can be blamed for the screwing up of any student they have ever properly instructed, then I would turn my license in.  There is no way I would risk that liability or understand why anyone else would.

Fred

[Wolfala]

I have no knowledge concerning flight training, but I do know this.  If the liability of a flight instructor is such that you can be blamed for the screwing up of any student they have ever properly instructed, then I would turn my license in.  There is no way I would risk that liability or understand why anyone else would.

Fred

Rest assured, many high net worth former CFI's exist for precisely that reason

[bmwgs]

Rest assured, many high net worth former CFI's exist for precisely that reason

Since I had no idea why "CFI" stood for, I decided to do a little checking.  Being retired, I tend to have some time on my hands.   

I ran across this website http://www.thecfi.com/CFI%20Marketing.htm when tying to figure out what "CFI" stood for.

I read the Flight Instructor Liability "Tiger by the Tail" article.

There was no surprise about a flight instructors responsibilities, but in each documented case, neglect was found, but not assumed.  At the end of the article a question as to whether a license pilot not under training can hold his flight school responsible for neglect which would include the flight instructor.  If I read correctly, it stated there have been no cases upheld in our court system where a flight school can be held responsible for the action of a licensed pilot that was not in training.

It was an interesting read.

Fred

[Golfer]

Since I don't have the time or give a hoot to read a 25 page paper I won't comment on its contents.

I also don't care what has or hasn't been held up in civil court.  I care about being in front of an administrative law judge and having an FAA inspector give me a recheck of whatever certificates or privileges deemed fit on a 709 checkride.

Those are two very real and not terribly uncommon things. I can say with absolute certainty that they occur for a wide variety of reasons. Airspace busts, dinging an airplane and even student pilots doing monumentally stupid things that reflect poorly on you and your business as the case may be. There have also been mass rechecks required of aviators pretty far removed from checkrides forced to retest for certain certificates and privileges because of things as small as clerical paperwork mistakes to moral or ethical problems with those issuing them.

I can give an example of a gear collapse (it was down and on the landing rollout one main folded) where the CFI and the pilot both were made to retest for their ratings. There's a little more to the story but an instructor, giving instruction in a guys personal airplane which had a problem. Presumably this has nothing to do with the instructor, right?  Wrong. Some pieces of paper weren't where they needed to be and it was seen fit to retest. Gee, fun.

I don't care to "debate" anything with you because you're making an argument just for the sake of it.  I can say whatever I want regarding this and completely disregard how you feel or what you think is fair treatment.  I assure you, if you're on the receiving end of something like this it will feel anything other than fair.

Now that said. When a student pilot does something with such blatant disregard for safety there is one place to look. The instructor.  That's not to say hang him at high noon but that's where responsibility (never said legal liability. Doesn't mean jack if your ticket gets pulled) lies.  Student pilots are stupid, they're trying to kill you and they're trying to kill themselves all the time isn't an unhealthy mentality for an instructor. Preventing them from doing so is the job.  Until they've moved on in their career when it's my signature on their initial solo, recurring 90 day solo, each solo cross country and every dual flight in their logbook...I'm responsible. Period.

[bmwgs]

Since I don't have the time or give a hoot to read a 25 page paper I won't comment on its contents.

I also don't care what has or hasn't been held up in civil court.  I care about being in front of an administrative law judge and having an FAA inspector give me a recheck of whatever certificates or privileges deemed fit on a 709 checkride.

Those are two very real and not terribly uncommon things. I can say with absolute certainty that they occur for a wide variety of reasons. Airspace busts, dinging an airplane and even student pilots doing monumentally stupid things that reflect poorly on you and your business as the case may be. There have also been mass rechecks required of aviators pretty far removed from checkrides forced to retest for certain certificates and privileges because of things as small as clerical paperwork mistakes to moral or ethical problems with those issuing them.

I can give an example of a gear collapse (it was down and on the landing rollout one main folded) where the CFI and the pilot both were made to retest for their ratings. There's a little more to the story but an instructor, giving instruction in a guys personal airplane which had a problem. Presumably this has nothing to do with the instructor, right?  Wrong. Some pieces of paper weren't where they needed to be and it was seen fit to retest. Gee, fun.

I don't care to "debate" anything with you because you're making an argument just for the sake of it.  I can say whatever I want regarding this and completely disregard how you feel or what you think is fair treatment.  I assure you, if you're on the receiving end of something like this it will feel anything other than fair.

Now that said. When a student pilot does something with such blatant disregard for safety there is one place to look. The instructor.  That's not to say hang him at high noon but that's where responsibility (never said legal liability. Doesn't mean jack if your ticket gets pulled) lies.  Student pilots are stupid, they're trying to kill you and they're trying to kill themselves all the time isn't an unhealthy mentality for an instructor. Preventing them from doing so is the job.  Until they've moved on in their career when it's my signature on their initial solo, recurring 90 day solo, each solo cross country and every dual flight in their logbook...I'm responsible. Period.

You are correct, I am enjoying debating this subject because you have danced around the one point that I have been trying to make.  ONE simple point, yet you have informed me about how a person should land a plane or messed up paperwork, or the reputation of a company based on its instructors.  All of this has absolutely nothing to do with my argument.

All I have been saying, and I felt I have been very clear is, you can not find fault with this student's instructor without even conducting the most basic investigation.  Period that is it, nothing else.  Earlier you made a blanket statement that the instructor was automatically at fault.  The instructor may be guilty as hell, but you can not tell me by watching a simple film you can tell me that the instructor is automatically at fault because a student screwed up.

So dance around the subject all you want, but if what you say is true, there would not be one flight school in this country because no insurance company would ever insure them.

As for being on the receiving end.  I have, more than once, and it did involve training (not flight training), so now maybe you can see why I take such an interest in this subject.

As for you not willing to debate, why post your opinion in an open forum?  I guess you just want your side heard.

Fred

One afterthought.  You are not willing to take the time to read 25 pages concerning the liability of flight instructors?  

[Wolfala]

Actually it's pretty simple: if he is a student he is flying on the instructors ticket - period.

[CAP1]

Actually it's pretty simple: if he is a student he is flying on the instructors ticket - period.

 i knew this during my training. i don't think you guys get paid enough(not that i want to pay more, but you know what i mean), and i don't know how you guys do it.  but i sure as hell appreciate what you guys do, and especially the CFI that i flew with, and as far as i'm concerned, he saved my bacon at least once, through his training.

[JOACH1M]

Quitting flying because you bounced off a car?  Really?

That's what I thought... what a puss

[Golfer]

, you can not find fault with this student's instructor without even conducting the most basic

Yes I can. Watch this:


It's the instructors fault.

[bmwgs]

Yes I can. Watch this:


It's the instructors fault.

Then watch this..  You are wrong until an investigation proves otherwise.

Fred

[Golfer]

Now you're catching on.

[bmwgs]

Now you're catching on.

Has been my point all along.  Don't know how you have missed it.

Fred

[RTHolmes]