Lomcevak tumble in AH?

[JOACH1M]

I have done it in a p51 I AH, I don't know how but I did. I have the film and will post.

[titanic3]

Spit16 always stall at the top of a vertical maneuver (sub 100mph), drops down on its back and float down like leaf. I always end up auguring unless I have 2K+ of alt to dropthe gear, retract the flaps, cut the engine, wait for the nose to drop, turn on the engine, wait for enough speed then pull up. Everytime I fly a Spit in a stall fight, that happens.

[nrshida]

I have done it in a p51 I AH, I don't know how but I did. I have the film and will post.

You aerobatic swine you! 

[Kingpin]

I have done it in a p51 I AH, I don't know how but I did. I have the film and will post.

Please do.  I'm curious to see someone do one in AH.

When I have time, I may try offline with a P-39, ammo depleted, and see if I can get it to do anything like it.

 

[Mace2004]

Spit16 always stall at the top of a vertical maneuver (sub 100mph), drops down on its back and float down like leaf. I always end up auguring unless I have 2K+ of alt to dropthe gear, retract the flaps, cut the engine, wait for the nose to drop, turn on the engine, wait for enough speed then pull up. Everytime I fly a Spit in a stall fight, that happens.

Don't confuse post stall behavior with a true Lomcevak.  Any aircraft can just flop around following a stall (called "post stall gyrations") while a Lomcevak is a controlled, inertia-coupled departure. Although entry technique will vary by airplane it has one constant attribute, inertia-coupling, in which rotation in two axis "couples" to create rotation in the third.  With prop planes, engine torque around the roll axis provides additional momentum which, when combined with the extremely high power-to-weight ratios of modern aerobatic airplanes explains the extended and dynamic versions of the Lomcevak you see in air shows.  I have tried the maneuver with many of AH's airplanes and could get none to couple up and I don't recall ever having a high-speed coupled departure in AH either.  I'm not sure why this is true but suspect it's just a shortcoming of the flight model.  I don't mean that as criticism as inertia coupling isn't a big deal with WWII aircraft and wasn't even really identified as an issue until the 1950s with the advent of fuselage loaded jets.  As for tactical utility...well...there really isn't any unless it's some final, last ditch attempt to evade being shot.

[morfiend]

   ^^^^
Great stuff Mace !





   

   

[titanic3]

Don't confuse post stall behavior with a true Lomcevak.  Any aircraft can just flop around following a stall (called "post stall gyrations") while a Lomcevak is a controlled, inertia-coupled departure. Although entry technique will vary by airplane it has one constant attribute, inertia-coupling, in which rotation in two axis "couples" to create rotation in the third.  With prop planes, engine torque around the roll axis provides additional momentum which, when combined with the extremely high power-to-weight ratios of modern aerobatic airplanes explains the extended and dynamic versions of the Lomcevak you see in air shows.  I have tried the maneuver with many of AH's airplanes and could get none to couple up and I don't recall ever having a high-speed coupled departure in AH either.  I'm not sure why this is true but suspect it's just a shortcoming of the flight model.  I don't mean that as criticism as inertia coupling isn't a big deal with WWII aircraft and wasn't even really identified as an issue until the 1950s with the advent of fuselage loaded jets.  As for tactical utility...well...there really isn't any unless it's some final, last ditch attempt to evade being shot.

Hmm, good to know. But looking at AckAck's diagram, I suppose if you somehow pulled it off, right after the number 6 in the diagram, that looks like an amazing shot if you could kill your opponent as he's chasing you.

[Babalonian]

Don't confuse post stall behavior with a true Lomcevak.  Any aircraft can just flop around following a stall (called "post stall gyrations") while a Lomcevak is a controlled, inertia-coupled departure. Although entry technique will vary by airplane it has one constant attribute, inertia-coupling, in which rotation in two axis "couples" to create rotation in the third.  With prop planes, engine torque around the roll axis provides additional momentum which, when combined with the extremely high power-to-weight ratios of modern aerobatic airplanes explains the extended and dynamic versions of the Lomcevak you see in air shows.  I have tried the maneuver with many of AH's airplanes and could get none to couple up and I don't recall ever having a high-speed coupled departure in AH either.  I'm not sure why this is true but suspect it's just a shortcoming of the flight model.  I don't mean that as criticism as inertia coupling isn't a big deal with WWII aircraft and wasn't even really identified as an issue until the 1950s with the advent of fuselage loaded jets.  As for tactical utility...well...there really isn't any unless it's some final, last ditch attempt to evade being shot.

Great post indeed. 

I'm curious if you've tried this with the Ta-152 in AH much though, I agree that what you described as high-speed coupled departures seem impossile to execute on demand in this game with most aircraft, but if there was one that does, or can at all, better than the others i would bet it on the 152 as it's modeled.  They probabley aren't, best that I can describe them to you, they are agressive high-speed stalls from over-control.

[USRanger]

Enable the RV-8 & try it.

[Sunka]

I have done it in a p51 I AH, I don't know how but I did. I have the film and will post.

Still looking?

[Mace2004]

Great post indeed.  

I'm curious if you've tried this with the Ta-152 in AH much though, I agree that what you described as high-speed coupled departures seem impossile to execute on demand in this game with most aircraft, but if there was one that does, or can at all, better than the others i would bet it on the 152 as it's modeled.  They probabley aren't, best that I can describe them to you, they are agressive high-speed stalls from over-control.

No, I've never tried the 152 but will give it a shot.  Also, I've seen some interesting videos of some unique maneuvers in the Jug that could possibly be coupled but I'm not sure.  I've just seen edited avi film of it, not the actual AH film version which would be easier to analyze.

[FLS]

Lepape's move in the Jug was a vertical snap roll which is what initiates the Lomcevak. Neil Williams has written that Bezak, the originator, told him there are 5 basic Lomcevaks, all with variations. The Main, Cap, Positive Conic, Negative Conic, and Tumble. As Mace noted, we don't have the torque for the tumble but I believe Lepape was arguably doing variations of the Main and the Cap. I believe you can do the Positive Conic in a P-51 with a negative snap roll in a vertical zoom climb. Williams mentioned flying backards while climbing in a Lomcevak and I've previously posted a picture of that in an F4U.

[JOACH1M]

Still looking?

havent been home.

Enable the RV-8 & try it.

I tried and tried in the TA for a few hours last week and couldn't get it to spin inverted.

[Kingpin]

Don't confuse post stall behavior with a true Lomcevak.  Any aircraft can just flop around following a stall (called "post stall gyrations") while a Lomcevak is a controlled, inertia-coupled departure. Although entry technique will vary by airplane it has one constant attribute, inertia-coupling, in which rotation in two axis "couples" to create rotation in the third.  With prop planes, engine torque around the roll axis provides additional momentum which, when combined with the extremely high power-to-weight ratios of modern aerobatic airplanes explains the extended and dynamic versions of the Lomcevak you see in air shows.  I have tried the maneuver with many of AH's airplanes and could get none to couple up and I don't recall ever having a high-speed coupled departure in AH either.  I'm not sure why this is true but suspect it's just a shortcoming of the flight model.  I don't mean that as criticism as inertia coupling isn't a big deal with WWII aircraft and wasn't even really identified as an issue until the 1950s with the advent of fuselage loaded jets.  As for tactical utility...well...there really isn't any unless it's some final, last ditch attempt to evade being shot.

Interesting post, Mace.  Thanks for that, sir!  It's amazing what a wealth of aeronautical knowledge we have in this community.  I'm always learning something new here.

Still curious to see a film of a Lomcevak performed in AH (if you get a chance to post it, Jo).

As long as people realize it's a novely, and don't think they'll be able to use it for something, like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlAsSyDAWR8

 

[MK-84]

Only aircraft I've been able to "unfortunatly" tumble like this is a 262, except backwards. 
You can accomplish this by not having nearly enough speed at the top of a loop.  You tumble end over end and it is not terribly pleasant to recover from. 

That being said after playing around in the custom arenas I believe it is controllable, albeit I'm not certain you want to ever get that slow in a 262.