Author Topic: Red Dawn  (Read 2201 times)

Offline ink

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Re: Red Dawn
« Reply #45 on: November 17, 2012, 06:11:35 PM »
Good lord, it's just a movie.  Meant for an hour & a half of entertainment.  Nothing more.


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Offline Rino

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Re: Red Dawn
« Reply #46 on: November 17, 2012, 08:14:59 PM »
Good lord, it's just a movie.  Meant for an hour & a half of entertainment.  Nothing more.

     That is true.  I just wonder how low the standards sink in order to dumb the scripts down to the lowest common denominator.
I mean how hard would it be to make actors actually have military haircuts in a war flick.  Or provide at least quasi believable opponents?
It's not like they do not reuse the same old tired scripts...ie this one.  I'd just like to see a touch of effort put into the product. 

     I don't think entertainment and realism are necessarily mutually exclusive.
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Offline Slash27

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Re: Red Dawn
« Reply #47 on: November 17, 2012, 11:05:55 PM »
The basic premise of the original Red Dawn was ridiculous.  I actually analyzed that scenario as a staff exercise once upon a time.  Suffice to say  that while it's just 60 air miles across the Bering straight (as Sarah Palin loved to point out) it's nearly 4000 sea miles from Vladivostok to Anchorage, those being the closest ports capable of mounting the invasion and supporting the ground operation, respectively.  And then it's another 2000 miles by land to the continental US.  On a two lane highway.  Through the mountains.  In the Arctic.  As for the supposed airdrop out of Cuba, all the runways in Central America couldn't support it.  The only believable part was the private arsenals to be found in Colorado high-schools.

But at least the Soviets had ships and planes that could, at least in theory, travel the required distances with division sized forces.  China?  No.  North Korea?  They can't even pave the roads at their "missile" base.

I could go on, but I won't, because I still hope to see Ronald Reagan's Nicaraguans from coming over the border at Brownsville, Texas and I don't want to discourage them.  It's just two days drive!  After they conquer Honduras, Guatamala, El-Salvador and Mexico of course, and assuming their 100 T-55 tanks didn't break down on their two-thousand mile Le Mans rally through jungle, mountain and desert...  Communism on the Doorstep!  Guess the Gipper wasn't sure 1 Cav div there in Fort Hood would be able to win that one for him.

Now that would be a film worth watching.  Maybe for a sequel Grenada and Panama could tag-team?



Private arsenals in Colorado high schools. That must have been in the directors cut.

Offline Motherland

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Re: Red Dawn
« Reply #48 on: November 18, 2012, 03:15:00 AM »
And then it's another 2000 miles by land to the continental US.  On a two lane highway.  Through the mountains.  In the Arctic.

I know it's not the same situation for several reasons, but this line brought back images of nose-to-tail convoys of Russian APCs, tanks etc. filing down poorly maintained highways through the Caucuses into Georgia in 2008. How impossible would an invasion along that highway be , exactly? Have really no more been built by now (sorry I'm an east-coaster)



Offline soda72

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Re: Red Dawn
« Reply #49 on: November 18, 2012, 08:04:20 AM »
I know it's not the same situation for several reasons, but this line brought back images of nose-to-tail convoys of Russian APCs, tanks etc. filing down poorly maintained highways through the Caucuses into Georgia in 2008. How impossible would an invasion along that highway be , exactly? Have really no more been built by now (sorry I'm an east-coaster)

(Image removed from quote.)
(Image removed from quote.)

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Offline stealth

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Re: Red Dawn
« Reply #50 on: November 18, 2012, 09:44:00 AM »
there you go, no wonder I could swear i heard australia.  it is called tomorrow something.  movie really sucks.


semp
It's called Tomorrow when the War Began, you must be confusing it with Red Dawn. If you guys want to watch it, then you can see it on Netflix and sometimes HBO. It's decent, I'm pretty sure it's an indie film. It has the same plot almost as Red Dawn except it's about some Australian teenagers going camping. Then when they come back they realize China invaded and the country is under occupation. They soon start doing non-conventional warfare stealing the enemies weapons and performing ambushes on bases and convoys.
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Offline Stellaris

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Re: Red Dawn
« Reply #51 on: November 18, 2012, 12:06:07 PM »
@Motherland - It's not hard to drive a road, it's another to fight it.  As Soda points out, backed-up convoys like the ones in your picture are an attack pilot's dream.  More to the point, combat power is limited by the frontage over which it can be applied.  Below is a stretch of the road at the Yukon border.  
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Yukon_border_sign_on_Klondike _Highway_2.jpg


As you can see, even tanks can't operate off the road here - the ground is either too steep (on the left) or too wet (on the right though it's not so obvious).  Even infantry will find moving off-road hard.  The frontage here is two tanks (cramped) or a dismounted infantry platoon.  Disable the lead tank, and the road is blocked until it can be moved.  A single dismounted tank-hunter team (4 guys with 4 missiles) and a couple of snipers, hidden pretty much anywhere in this vista, could stall a division here for a day.  There's a thousand kilometers like this with NO route options (after that you get a second highway, just like this one, for another thousand).  Now imagine cratering the road, blowing the many, many bridges, artillery scattered mines, MLRS and airstrikes.  Oh yeah, and winter arrives in October and it isn't leaving until May.  There is little terrain on this planet more favourable to the defence.  Invading through Alaska is a non-starter even at this basic tactical level.  So is invading the US at all, anywhere, on this and many other levels, but that's another post.

@USRanger This is why I referenced Reagan's quote about the Nicaraguan communist/terrorist sanctuary being just two days drive from the Texas border.   Yes, you can drive your car from Managua to Brownsville in two days, but I sure hope Reagan didn't really believe that meant the Nicaraguans posed an invasion threat.  Unfortunately I'm equally sure he intended to imply it to gain the support of the geographically and militarily challenged for his intervention policies.  Exaggerating threats is a common political tactic, and movies like Red Dawn (either version) may be simple entertainment, but they also support the foreign threat narrative.  This has real impact, and its happening today (Hands up all who believe Saddam's nuclear weapons were hidden in Iran). By all means enjoy the film.  Just know that the basic premise is ridiculous.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2012, 12:34:43 PM by Stellaris »

Offline Rob52240

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Re: Red Dawn
« Reply #52 on: November 19, 2012, 12:41:11 PM »
Reminds me of the highway of death Kuwait.
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Offline Sabre

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Re: Red Dawn
« Reply #53 on: November 19, 2012, 02:28:45 PM »
Another take on things...

All of those criticizing the premise behind both the original “Red Dawn” and this remake are assuming that the geopolitical landscape we have today (or 30 years ago, in the case of the original movie) is the same in the movie’s “universe”.  The original was released in 1984, but they don’t ever tell you if the story takes place in 1984, or sometime in the not-to-distant future. In this earlier version, Russia invades through Mexico, if memory serves me, and made use of Cuban (or some Central American nation’s or nations’) troops for occupation duty, backed by Soviet logistics.  They imply that Russian troops are also involved, probably at the front, but the USSR is also fighting China, who comes into the war on our side (or at least are co-belligerents).  So the geopolitical situation in the film was very likely different from the reality of the time it was released.

The movie also implies that D.C. was hit in some sort of surprise, but limited nuclear attack.  A large majority of our forces are (were) stationed in Europe, and the film also states that NATO basically surrenders when the USSR threatens them with a nuclear strike, hanging the cream of our conventional combat forces out to dry.  With both sides still holding enough nuclear forces to decimate the other, the initial success of the invasion is replaced by a war of attrition sets.  Perhaps like Japan in the Second World War, the Soviets hoped the will to resist would be quickly broken by the decapitation strike against our military and political leadership, and the rapid occupation and pacification of a significant portion of CONUS.

Now let’s turn to this modern version.  I have only seen the trailer, so I’m going to have to make a few assumptions.  The year is 2021.  Let’s assume that the United States, after numerous and costly wars in the middle-east, finally says enough is enough.  We’ve managed to overcome the political opposition to utilizing our own vast reserves of fossil fuels, as well as our fear of nuclear energy, and achieved energy independence.  With anti-military isolationist in power in the US, we’ve essentially abandoned the world stage, pulling out of all military alliances, pulling all forward deployed forces home, and decommissioning a large percentage of our military; China steps in to fill the vacuum.  

A currency and trade war brews between China and the US.  The Chinese move to replace the US dollar as the world’s reserve currency with China’s currency.  This trashes the US economy and, finding itself suddenly isolated and without allies, the US retaliates by defaulting on the huge national debt (a significant percentage is held by...wait for it...China).  Thinking the US is now just a paper tiger with no national will to resist, China builds up military forces in Central and South America, as well as in Cuba (they are Cuba’s new best buddy, having helped them develop oil production in the Gulf, during those years that anti-fossil fuel extremists were in power in Washington).  

From here, the pattern follows the first Red Dawn movie: a limited nuclear strike, followed up by an invasion by land (again, through Mexico), sea (having spent decades building a blue-water navy), and air.  The front-line troops are Chinese regulars, but they make use of Korean troops (North Korea having rolled over South Korea after the US pulled out) to seize and occupy certain strategic crossroads (one in Colorado, as it happens).  Half the country is occupied, but the war stalemates; the USA manages to hold onto about two-thirds of its territory, and China (while extremely powerful) lacks the logistical skill to press the attack and achieve a decisive breakout.  A resistance is quick to form in the occupied territories, to disrupt the occupation...

Least that's one way it could go.  I'm not saying it's a likely scenario, but it's not totally outside the realm of the possible.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2012, 02:33:42 PM by Sabre »
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Offline BreakingBad

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Re: Red Dawn
« Reply #54 on: November 19, 2012, 02:37:21 PM »
I'm not saying it's a likely scenario, but it's not totally outside the realm of the possible.

I just don't really see us getting invaded by half a million starving North Koreans.

Offline Slash27

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Re: Red Dawn
« Reply #55 on: November 19, 2012, 05:17:22 PM »

Offline CptTrips

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Re: Red Dawn
« Reply #56 on: November 19, 2012, 06:46:56 PM »
Toxic, psychotic, self-aggrandizing drama queens simply aren't worth me spending my time on.

Offline Stellaris

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Re: Red Dawn
« Reply #57 on: November 20, 2012, 01:26:11 AM »
@sabre - you have the backstory for the original nailed.  It was a 1970s War College scenario, as I recall.  And of course it's a different geopolitical universe - so is Star Trek.  The important thing is to realize it's not a POSSIBLE geopolitical universe.  We could imagine the Soviet Union invading western Europe.  They had that capability.  They never had the capability to invade North America, no matter how the dice fell.

Same same, China could roll over North Korea - the capability exists.  North Korea can't roll over South Korea.  Yes they have 3400 tanks.  The most modern are T-62s.  They also can't nuke Hawaii, and they don't have stealth paint, no matter what Wikipedia says.  Just google for a nightime sat image of the Korean peninsula.  It makes plain why NK is not a threat to anyone, though both they and other players like to pretend that they are for their own internal political reasons. 

Again, enjoy the movie, just know it's not a possible scenario.  Star Trek isn't either.  Still worth catching the video.


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Offline jimson

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Re: Red Dawn
« Reply #58 on: November 20, 2012, 01:50:05 AM »
If you want to get hung up on plausibility, you should never go watch a science fiction movie. Who can say exactly what may or may not be plausible in the future?

I don't know if the film will mention pre-cursers to the US invasion. I don't know if there is some background of enemy forces getting incrementally closer to North America, or if it's straight from North Korea to the shores of the US.

Suppose China embarks on a huge military build up. Allies with North Korea and arms them to the teeth. Deploys some sort of new secret weapons (alluded to in the trailer) Who knows maybe they find a way to neutralize our nuclear capability and significantly cripple our conventional capability over seas.

Who knows? just suspend likelihood and enjoy the move.

Offline zack1234

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Re: Red Dawn
« Reply #59 on: November 20, 2012, 02:09:34 AM »
Will Chinese take aways become cheaper if they invade?

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