Author Topic: Convergence Considerations  (Read 2676 times)

Offline Slade

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Re: Convergence Considerations
« Reply #15 on: November 15, 2012, 05:52:03 AM »
Quote
The icon counter switches from D400 to D200 at 300 yards (or 299, I forget).  Thedistance midway between the icon counters is the distance they all switch.

This forum rocks!  I did not know that.  I learn so much in here.

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Offline SmokinLoon

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Re: Convergence Considerations
« Reply #16 on: November 15, 2012, 07:42:03 AM »
Well yes, I aim differently depending on what aircraft I am flying because, most planes have different guns, therefore different gun trajectories, therefore different leads, convergences, etc.
ACM plays a big part as how hard both you and the enemy obviously play a role in how much you will lead that specific plane in that specific maneuver.
My shots will range all the way up to 600-1000 yards, this of course depending on what plane I am in, and what the situation is, but it is rare I shoot outside of ~700 yards, my average is 200-600 yard shots.
You wouldn't aim the same was in a spitfire as you would a 109, zeke, ki84, etc. as the guns are totally different.
If that makes sense? Anyway hope I answered your question  :cheers:

 :salute

Average shots are 200-600.   :aok

Ok, I was just curious.  I find it fascinating that people really think that they can judge the difference in velocity and trajectory (outside convergence) to the point that that they drastically change their convergence.  Have you ever done the .target and seen the different between Hispanos and say Japanese or German 20mm?  Try it and you'll see how similar they are.  The German 30mm and the 37mm's are really the only black sheep in the family in terms of trajectory (using typical ranges under 600 yards).  Otherwise the .30 cals, .50 cals, and 20mm's are all very close, too close in my opinion to make the minute calculation changes in a knife fight (200-400 yards). To each his own.
Proud grandson of the late Lt. Col. Darrell M. "Bud" Gray, USAF (ret.), B24D pilot, 5th BG/72nd BS. 28 combat missions within the "slot", PTO.

Offline titanic3

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Re: Convergence Considerations
« Reply #17 on: November 15, 2012, 08:18:27 AM »
Average shots are 200-600.   :aok

Ok, I was just curious.  I find it fascinating that people really think that they can judge the difference in velocity and trajectory (outside convergence) to the point that that they drastically change their convergence.  Have you ever done the .target and seen the different between Hispanos and say Japanese or German 20mm?  Try it and you'll see how similar they are.  The German 30mm and the 37mm's are really the only black sheep in the family in terms of trajectory (using typical ranges under 600 yards).  Otherwise the .30 cals, .50 cals, and 20mm's are all very close, too close in my opinion to make the minute calculation changes in a knife fight (200-400 yards). To each his own.

If I spend a long time in one particular plane (I always switch back and forth between 109s and P38s), I found that after 2 or 3 days, I start to lose my "aim" in the other plane. Especially with the MK108s. Half of aiming an landing your shots (IMO), is memory. After a while, you start to remember the bullet's path and if you don't believe me, turn off tracers. I experimented with that once, I turn off tracers after flying the K4 exclusively for a week or two, I found that I was still landing shots within 400 yards in 5-6 rounds burst. After I switched to a P38 for a week and came back to the K4, I could not hit anything past 200 yards, I had lost my "memory" of the K4. At least that's how I see it anyway.

  the game is concentrated on combat, not on shaking the screen.

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Offline tunnelrat

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Re: Convergence Considerations
« Reply #18 on: November 15, 2012, 09:40:33 AM »
What about the damage value on purely kinetic rounds?  Although I have my .50's set at 400... and almost everything else that way as well... I almost always end up firing in closer.  The only reason I don't bring them back in a touch is it seems like the value of being able to make a more accurate long shot (say to get someone to break off their pursuit of a friendly, etc) is greater than the extra punch afforded by hitting with a more harmonized convergence at closer range.  I would say most of my shots are between 100 and 300, and I am really only using the P-51B until I get it down right... would bringing them in to 300 help?

I bring the .303s in purely because of the harder punch at close range, does anyone have any realistic damage values for purely kinetic rounds at various ranges?

Are all 20mm rounds in AH modeled as explosive?  I have been led to believe that they are.

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Offline Debrody

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Re: Convergence Considerations
« Reply #19 on: November 15, 2012, 09:46:47 AM »
G6: cannon was at 275, MGs at 400
D9: all at 350
262: all at 250
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Offline ink

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Re: Convergence Considerations
« Reply #20 on: November 15, 2012, 09:51:33 AM »
all my guns..... all planes I set to 300

Offline tunnelrat

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Re: Convergence Considerations
« Reply #21 on: November 15, 2012, 10:27:17 AM »
G6: cannon was at 275, MGs at 400

Do those settings match ballistics better, or do you fire MGs at long range and cannon in close?

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Offline SmokinLoon

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Re: Convergence Considerations
« Reply #22 on: November 15, 2012, 12:33:40 PM »
The .30 cals and .50 cal MG's loose their ability to do damage over range simply due to the loss of kinetic energy.  The .30 cals are great when in close (250 and in), remember they typically fire 3X's faster than the .50 cals, but are 1/3rd the damage value. 

I do believe all of the 20mm in AH are of the "HE" variety.  Some have a small TNT charge in the projectile and some simply have a thin jacket that one it contacts a medium it shreds apart acting like an HE warhead.  I very little information as to which country used which for what projectile.  Just know the a single .30 cal bullet is about 1/3rd the power of a single .50 cal bullet which in turn is about 1/4th as effective as a 20mm round.  Also keep in mind when using the MG's that a direct hit is needed to cause damage where as a 20mm can miss and still do damage thanks to the "splash" damage being modeled.  This can be seen when de-acking a field or town, a single 20mm round somewhere inside the gun pit will destroy the ack, while the MG's needs to directly hit the ack gun to destroy it.

I's be happy to forward my latest "Weapons Damage" chart to anyone who PM's me, it will show the damage value for every weapon in AH (not the Me410's 50mm though, I have yet to test it).  I tested them all from scratch.  I think Butcher has a copy on his website (or did)   
Proud grandson of the late Lt. Col. Darrell M. "Bud" Gray, USAF (ret.), B24D pilot, 5th BG/72nd BS. 28 combat missions within the "slot", PTO.

Offline mtnman

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Re: Convergence Considerations
« Reply #23 on: November 15, 2012, 06:35:23 PM »
The only reason I don't bring them back in a touch is it seems like the value of being able to make a more accurate long shot (say to get someone to break off their pursuit of a friendly, etc) is greater than the extra punch afforded by hitting with a more harmonized convergence at closer range.  I would say most of my shots are between 100 and 300, and I am really only using the P-51B until I get it down right... would bringing them in to 300 help?

Seems like the value...  Is the key point of your statement.

To each his own, but...

In addition to convergence HTC has modeled dispersion.  This means that the "cluster" or "group size" of any individual gun gets larger or more spread out the further away you shoot.  If the gun was perfectly stationary when it was fired at say 200yds, not every bullet would go into the same hole.  They'd all hit within a fairly small circle, though.  As an example, let's say they all hit within a 6" diameter circle...

If you double the range (and fire at 400 yards) with that same, stationary gun the group size will get larger.  The bullets will no longer all impact within that 6" circle, but will now spread out to hit roughly within a 12" circle.

What that means is that if you compare the group size of a 400yd convergence fired at 400yds with a 300yd convergence fired at 300yds, the latter will be a "tighter" (more effective) group.  That's "first".  Second, the bullets lose energy with range, which once again gives the title of "more effective" to the 300yd setting.  

Next, the 400yd setting is at its most-effective at 400 yards, with some loss of effectiveness at every other range (even for closer shots).  The same argument can and should be made for the 300yd convergence setting, obviously, but...  You state that you generally fire between 100 and 300yds...  That means you'll essentially NEVER get full effect with the 400yd setting, and as pointed out, even if you do it'll be more spread out and have lost more energy...  With the 300yd setting, you're going to have more effect, simply because you have a tighter, higher energy group.

Next, back to dispersal and convergence...  With the 300yd setting, as you fire further than 300yds, your rounds will begin to spread out again...  However, due to dispersal the effect at 400yds isn't a whole lot worse than than the effect with the 400yd setting.  The primary difference is that instead of one big spread-out group you'll have two groups.

Taken to extremes, it's easy to see this if you fire on bombers in a top-down attack with a 300yd setting at say 600 yards.  At this range, your two groups will have spread out to be 15' apart (double the distance of convergence  means your groups will have spread back out to match the distance between your right and left wing guns).  That 15' spread will still land on the bomber assuming you can hit it where the wings meet the fuselage...  You'll see the group tighten as you close to 300, and by then you'll have full impact on the bomber.  One quick pass with 6 .50's is about all it takes to kill any bomber in the game this way...

6 x .50's fired at 300yds with a 300yd setting is chainsaw effective against fighters.

In short though, you're already somewhat hindered by only having 4 x .50's (not that it matters; fly what you like and learn to be effective in it).  Why hinder yourself further with a 400yd setting?
« Last Edit: November 15, 2012, 06:42:05 PM by mtnman »
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Offline B3YT

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Re: Convergence Considerations
« Reply #24 on: November 16, 2012, 05:36:51 AM »
I fly the Hurricane MkIa almost exclusively  .  In knife fights i find the 8 X .303 browning's below 250yrds ( I set convergence to 200yrds) to be very effective. Yesterday a quick 1/2 second burst   stripped the wings off a spit IX  and that was at 100yrds so I saw strikes on both wing roots  as they had not converged yet .  I don't go by the distance tag but by how wide the enemy is in the sights .  I follow the example of 303 polish squadron RAF  : " Get the B@stard to fill up your cockpit then fire on the  piece of filth. "
As the cleaners say :"once more unto the bleach"

Offline Debrody

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Re: Convergence Considerations
« Reply #25 on: November 16, 2012, 05:54:41 AM »
Do those settings match ballistics better, or do you fire MGs at long range and cannon in close?
It was purely practical. MGs had a load of ammo (300/gun) so with the longer convergence, i could spray a bit more accurately on the spixteens trying to run away. Also, on the close range shots, when i used my cannons too, they were still hitting the same spot.
Not saying its the way to follow though.
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Offline titanic3

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Re: Convergence Considerations
« Reply #26 on: November 16, 2012, 06:18:45 AM »
It was purely practical. MGs had a load of ammo (300/gun) so with the longer convergence, i could spray a bit more accurately on the spixteens trying to run away. Also, on the close range shots, when i used my cannons too, they were still hitting the same spot.
Not saying its the way to follow though.

I almost never use MGs with the cannons in 109s. Even with a 20mm set up. I find 1x 20mm is still plenty firepower to kill most fighters. Firing the MGs makes me confused on which tracer to pay attention to. Now if we had colored tracers, that'd be different.

  the game is concentrated on combat, not on shaking the screen.

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Offline icepac

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Re: Convergence Considerations
« Reply #27 on: November 16, 2012, 09:33:49 AM »
I wish we had a "900" setting.

Offline Wiley

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Re: Convergence Considerations
« Reply #28 on: November 16, 2012, 12:54:58 PM »
What about the damage value on purely kinetic rounds?  Although I have my .50's set at 400... and almost everything else that way as well... I almost always end up firing in closer.  The only reason I don't bring them back in a touch is it seems like the value of being able to make a more accurate long shot (say to get someone to break off their pursuit of a friendly, etc) is greater than the extra punch afforded by hitting with a more harmonized convergence at closer range.  I would say most of my shots are between 100 and 300, and I am really only using the P-51B until I get it down right... would bringing them in to 300 help?

Mtnman's got it pretty much dead on IMO when it comes to gunnery.

I just figured I'd comment because I used to have the same train of thought as you do in this aspect, and I used to set my .50s at 450 as well for the same reasons.

What I found when I shortened up my convergence was snapshots on maneuvering planes started to work a lot better for me because the rounds from both sides were closer together in a tighter group rather than the two streams being relatively spread out inside of about 350 or so.

I find I can spark a guy to get him to turn pretty much as well out to 600-800 with my convergence set at 300 as I could with it set at 450.  With the rounds dispersed like they are, it's pretty rare for me to knock off anything meaningful over 600 with wing mounted guns anyways.  YMMV of course, but I found shortening it up felt like it improved my damage in close where my 'serious' attempts at actually killing them occur.  It also seemed to have little to no impact on my effectiveness when I'd shoot at buffs from further out.

My feeling is you're not going to damage much with .50s if the enemy is 600 or further due to dispersion and damage on MGs going down with distance unless it's a buff and you're on the way in.

I set .50s and 20mms to 300, .303s to 250 and don't fire outside of 300, and taters at 350.

Wiley.
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Offline tunnelrat

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Re: Convergence Considerations
« Reply #29 on: November 16, 2012, 01:15:58 PM »
Thanks mtnmn and Wiley!

I've been trying to get better at firing ~400yd, but I think I am going to up a few times offline with 300 and check it out.

Also, thanks for that info Debrody, going to be awhile before I migrate over to something else to fly but that is good to know!

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