geothermal heat

[homersipes]

it is supposed to be one of the greenest heating systems, as the only energy that is used is electricity

[RTHolmes]

Ive been looking into GSHP recently and it looks like a great solution for some properties - 1/4 your heating bills or 1/3 if you use it for hot water too. quite expensive initially though compared to a conventional boiler, although there is one obvious way to slash the cost - do the ground source part yourself.

theres no point paying top heating engineer rates to dig the trenches and lay the slinkies, any idiot can do that. you can probably source the slinkies cheaper than the engineers will charge too, so do everything up to the manifold and pay the engineer rates for everything from there. Assuming it pressure tests ok, and uses certified tubing they shouldnt have a problem with that.

[homersipes]

yea there are many DIY palns and stuff available, was looking at it the other night online, I guess there is a HUGE tax credit that goes along with the systems that we install, something like 10k, but yes very expensive at first

[RTHolmes]

pretty useful subsidies for them over here too. theres something really neat about the idea of using the same amount of energy but getting most of it from the ground for free

btw how deep do your wells go? (Ive only been looking into the horizontal option as its much cheaper than wells here)

[homersipes]

the 2 I have worked on were 600' deep so yes that can be quite pricey also

[RTHolmes]

wow thats pretty deep, how hot is it down there?

[homersipes]

the water temp is between 45 and 55, it then gets pumped to the house and the heating units condensor extracts the heat and energy(dont ask me how lol) and it is then pumped into a coil where a blower just like a hotairfurnace has blows over a coil and blows the heat into the home, the water is then expelled back to the well.  at least this is my understanding of how it works, this is my 3rd week working there and 2nd heat pump job.

[helbent]

it is supposed to be one of the greenest heating systems, as the only energy that is used is electricity

Where does electricity come from?  Ill await my answer from the green energy czar.

But this sounds great, lets go shut down so more coal plants!  While were at it lets stop drilling for oil right now, cuz this new fangled green energy stuff has all our needs covered! Its AWESOME!!!!!

[Stellaris]

Hydroelectric is the cheapest, most reliable power you'll ever get, except maybe geothermal.  They're both nicely green, the problem is they're site limited.  Fossil fuel technology is next cheapest, although they'd be more expensive if their subsidies were removed.  If you count in the direct costs of air pollution and water contamination then wind power is comparable, and even solar is getting competitive in very sunny areas.  The problem with wind and solar isn't so much their direct cost but the fact that they aren't reliable. Beyond roughly 10-15% of renewables you need mass grid storage and transmission overcapacity, and these push up the price.

Of course if you consider events like Hurricane Sandy, Hurricane Katrina and this summer's 100 billion dollar drought, fossil fuels get even more expensive, and are poised to get a lot more so.

However I don't want you to think I'm one of those lefty-greeny-sciency namby-pambys who thinks global warming means we should stop using fossil fuels.  Not at all!  I live in Canada, and we make zillions selling oilsands oil.  Right now I'm enjoying the warmest, sunniest November that Toronto has ever seen, and our crops did just fine.  I think it's madness to subsidize green energy when that money could be better invested in humvees.

[RTHolmes]

Where does electricity come from? etc.

you're missing the point: GSHPs use alot less of the kind of energy you have to pay for, so your heating bills go down by alot. this is a good thing.

[smoe]

Now that we are on the green subject. I was looking at ebay a few days ago for DIY solar panels. Some claim the panels will pay for themselves in 4-6 years. I think solar would probably be a good long term option. My dream home would include: super insulated, radiant heat floor, solar panels, lots of south facing windows, and maybe a solar water heating system (for hot water supply and evening/night home heat).

And most importantly I would love to just tinker with the controls and do most of the install work myself. Only problem is I really want to move down to Florida to escape the snow.

[Stellaris]

@smoe - It depends where you are.  If it's sunny and there's a feed-in-tarriff, then you're probably looking good.  I was looking at a combined power/heat system here (we've got a good feed in tarrif, and it's about average for sun), and the payoff was 2 years.  HOWEVER, that was because I could then write off my roof as a business expense and gain various other indirect tax advantages.  From a pure sun-in->money-out perspective, it was seven years.

Which is still not a bad investment, actually, and panels prices have fallen through the floor since then.  However installation costs are considerable and now usually dominate system cost, so it still ain't free power.  You have to do homework on...

Your site (how sunny, how southern exposed, any shading issues (a tiny amount of shade causes exponentially large losses)
Your laws (work permits, zoning, grid connection tariffs, electrical code, tax code)
The system (panel technology, inverter technology, fixed or tracking, controllers, etc.)

For what it's worth, I found that microinverters and monocrystal panels were the best for my site.  I've got a big roof facing nearly due south, and I could use tracking racks at a higher initial cost, same time-frame payout and get higher downstream profit.  It's well worth getting a combined thermal/power system, because not only do you get cheap heat in winter but like all electronics solar panels like to be cool.  However being big, black surfaces aligned to the sun they get very hot.  However with a ground-source thermal panels backed on your power panels you can cool the panels in the summer (which makes your winter heat even cheaper 'cuz you heatpump the heat underground).  This gives you about 25% more efficiency at noon summer peaks, and about 5% annually (it'd be more if you lived somewhere hot, which I don't).  There was (or used to be) a company called Drum Solar who made these combined panels (I believe in upstate NY somewhere).  There's another one here that make brilliantly engineered dual mode panels, but you'd then have to look into any import restrictions and pay whatever tariffs.

Cheers!

Paul

[Vulcan]

I am going to school to learn HVAC as we speak.  Vulcan is correct, it is very costly to install.  If something breaks or there is a leak overtime it will be very expensive to fix aswell.  They will have to re dig it back up. 

I was referring more to the fact you're probably living on a super-volcano

[homersipes]

well one of the units had a bad compressor right from the factory, will let you all know when I find out how much that costs to replace.  I find this technology quite cool and interesting, but the price of it vs a regular oil fired furnace is huge, so unless I had all kinds of money to spend not really an option, and I imagine the light bill would be signfigantly higher also.

[smoe]

For what it's worth, I found that microinverters and monocrystal panels were the best for my site.  I've got a big roof facing nearly due south, and I could use tracking racks at a higher initial cost, same time-frame payout and get higher downstream profit.  It's well worth getting a combined thermal/power system, because not only do you get cheap heat in winter but like all electronics solar panels like to be cool.  However being big, black surfaces aligned to the sun they get very hot.  However with a ground-source thermal panels backed on your power panels you can cool the panels in the summer (which makes your winter heat even cheaper 'cuz you heatpump the heat underground).  This gives you about 25% more efficiency at noon summer peaks, and about 5% annually (it'd be more if you lived somewhere hot, which I don't).  There was (or used to be) a company called Drum Solar who made these combined panels (I believe in upstate NY somewhere).  There's another one here that make brilliantly engineered dual mode panels, but you'd then have to look into any import restrictions and pay whatever tariffs.

Cheers!

Paul

Wow, that's cool, I never thought about a combined thermal/power system used to cool solar panels for better efficiency. I'll have to look into that. This has potential for large family homes/businesses with a pre-heated water tank (a tank water enters before the main hot water tank). Also, a combined system would make better use of a limited rooftop space and could even reduce the amount (money) of framing needed.