Gun Accidents.....how safe are you? really?

[nrshida]

Gun safety is one area where your thinking should be quite "rigid".

I'm not talking about disciplined procedure, that's something else.

The Glock range of pistols is used by the armies and/or police forces of 47 countries, including the USA, UK, and even Russia. Its safety features is one of its biggest selling points.

The popularity could be due to other factors such as cost. This is the kind of rigidity I mean.

To say that it is unsafe or "unintelligent, from the design point of view" is an inept characterization made from a position of ignorance.

Or it could be an impartial observation from a product design expert.

[GScholz]

The Glock is not a cheap handgun. It's not the most expensive either, but when special forces like the German GSG9, Russian A-teams, French special forces, Israeli Defense Force, FBI and U.S. Marshals Service import the Glock instead of using domestic alternatives, it certainly isn't because of cost issues. In the civilian market American gun manufacturers did their damnedest to stop the Glock from entering the market, but it still became what Paul M. Barrett calls "America's Gun".

As a self proclaimed "product design expert" you made a brass statement back on page one:

This is a profoundly stupid design feature. The trigger should do one thing only.

You've been desperately trying to defend that statement ever since, despite the fact that it is completely false. You dance around the subject, repeatedly changing and injecting new qualifiers, but in the end you can not get away from the indisputable truth:  The trigger on the Glock pistol does indeed only do one thing.

[nrshida]

The Glock is not a cheap handgun. It's not the most expensive either, but when special forces like the German GSG9, Russian A-teams, French special forces, Israeli Defense Force, FBI and U.S. Marshals Service import the Glock instead of using domestic alternatives, it certainly isn't because of cost issues. In the civilian market American gun manufacturers did their damnedest to stop the Glock from entering the market, but it still became what Paul M. Barrett calls "America's Gun".

But your assertion does not prove that the selection was based on safety considerations does it?

As a self proclaimed "product design expert" you made a brass statement back on page one:

You've been desperately trying to defend that statement ever since, despite the fact that it is completely false. You dance around the subject, repeatedly changing and injecting new qualifiers, but in the end you can not get away from the indisputable truth:  The trigger on the Glock pistol does indeed only do one thing.

I wouldn't say desperately, I am trying to get someone to illustrate how my theory is faulty. So far Gman has added weight to it and all I've got from you is a wriggling circular and pedantic argument that essentially boils down to x million users can't be wrong, and the Glock is perfectly safe enough when we point in a safe direction and play the 'is the chamber empty' Russian Roulette for bystanders to see.

Look at your clinging to this statement: 'The trigger on the Glock pistol does indeed only do one thing'. Yes it it releases the striker into the chamber whether there is a round there or not. I agree with you up to that point. I suggest having to do that as part of the disassembly / decocking process is not sensible and increases the possibility of ND. I think touching the trigger should be done during one operation: firing the gun at the target after the safety features have been satisfied.


It's okay with me you know GScholz, to have a difference of opinion. I gather for you it is very important to be right all the time. I would be very happy if you could prove I am wrong because that would advance my work. Go ahead and show conclusively why it is beneficial to pull the trigger as part of any 'making safe' procedure without the possibility of the gun going off and I'll happily concede I am wrong.

[GScholz]

Go ahead and show conclusively why it is beneficial to pull the trigger as part of any 'making safe' procedure without the possibility of the gun going off and I'll happily concede I am wrong.

Pulling the trigger and dry-firing the gun is the only way to be sure, and to make other people around you (say at a shooting range) sure that the gun is indeed empty and safe. When, not if, the gun fires a round down range instead of making a clicking sound this procedure proves its worth, and possibly saves a life. If the unfortunate person in the OP's post had done this he would have fired a round in a safe direction instead of blowing a hole in his hand. Remember, that person believed he had successfully cleared the gun. People make mistakes and this is the last barrier of safety to avoid an accident. This is basic firearms safety instructed, I would think, universally around the world. It is how the Norwegian Army trains and it is how this American gentleman instructs firearms safety: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9y_FaItcTg&feature=player_detailpage#t=114s As previously shown.

The the possibility of the gun going off is exactly why you should do it.

[nrshida]

What if the slide is locked back? Doesn't this also communicate a safe state like a break action shotgun?

[GScholz]

No. What if you drop the gun? The action could easily close and create a dangerous situation. As long as there is a chance that there is a live round in the chamber no gun is safe, period. The only way to make sure is to pull the trigger in a safe direction and see what happens.

[Dadsguns]

No. What if you drop the gun? The action could easily close and create a dangerous situation. As long as there is a chance that there is a live round in the chamber no gun is safe, period. The only way to make sure is to pull the trigger in a safe direction and see what happens.

NEVER EVER PULL A TRIGGER ON A GUN TO ENSURE ITS EMPTY/SAFE...... NEVER!!

You always open the action and verify clear and safe by ensuring that the source of ammo is removed... Magazine, shotgun shells, etc.... then verify the chamber is empty.  You will do this step each time you pick up a gun no matter if you think its unloaded or not.  

By programming yourself to pull the trigger on a gun you assume to be empty will get you or someone else killed.  Its poor weapons handling on your part and piss poor training.  I highly recommend you get proper training from a credible source.

To the OP, there is no such thing as an "Accident" when it deals with guns, its only negligence.

[nrshida]

No. What if you drop the gun? The action could easily close and create a dangerous situation. As long as there is a chance that there is a live round in the chamber no gun is safe, period. The only way to make sure is to pull the trigger in a safe direction and see what happens.

Or to decock it with another method, surely?

Slide locked open without a magazine I meant, same as your drill.

Also, your method only works if I witness you dry firing it. If you do that and put the weapon on the bench, then go for a wizz and I come along, I have to assume the weapon is in a dangerous condition (according to the four rules), since I didn't see you dry fire it. Right?

[Flench]

I don't know why the cops went to the Glock when the S&W 9mm they were carying is such a fine gun . Where I got mine the cop went to the Glock so I got his 9mm .

[Maverick]

Or to decock it with another method, surely?

Slide locked open without a magazine I meant, same as your drill.

Also, your method only works if I witness you dry firing it. If you do that and put the weapon on the bench, then go for a wizz and I come along, I have to assume the weapon is in a dangerous condition (according to the four rules), since I didn't see you dry fire it. Right?

Assuming you are still speaking about a Glock your assertion is incorrect. In the dry fired condition you mention the trigger remains back in the pulled position. In other words had the trigger been pulled it stays back in the rearward position and is very obvious to the observer. It only resets after the slide has been moved to the rear beyond the dis assembly point. To remove the slide after the trigger is pulled you move the slide to the rear only a small distance and depress the slide release catch. About 1/8 of an inch or so.

Secondly the trigger does two functions. It stacks or moves the striker to the full cocked position just prior to release. Before the trigger is pulled and after it is reset the striker is only under partial compression of the firing spring tension. It is held in that position by the internal stop, the retracting firing pin lock. When the trigger is pulled the striker is moved back to full cock, the firing pin lock is depressed clearing the movement for the pin to go forward to hit the primer of the cartridge after the trigger transfer bars reaches full rearward travel and descends to release the striker. The striker remains forward, protruding from the breech and the trigger remains in the rearmost position until the slide moves rearward enough to allow them to return to the pre firing position.

In a 1911 during the dis assembly process the slide MUST move back far enough for the barrel retention pin to be removed. That distance will put the hammer in full cocked position before the slide moves forward to clear the frame. It takes less effort to remove the slide if you manually cock the hammer before moving the slide to the rear.

[Maverick]

I don't know why the cops went to the Glock when the S&W 9mm they were carying is such a fine gun . Where I got mine the cop went to the Glock so I got his 9mm .

One of the reasons is the DA then SA trigger pull on the S&W. Since the S&W is carried hammer down but with a round chambered the trigger has to fully cock the hammer. After the first round it reverts to a SA pull, far lighter and shorter, like a standard SA semi auto like the 1911.

[Flench]

I see what your saying Maverick , thx .

[GScholz]

Or to decock it with another method, surely?

No. The whole point is to fire the gun safely, if there happens to be a round in the chamber after you cleared it (and failed somehow like the person in the OP's post). Just decocking it will not make the weapon safe.

The vast majority of pistols with decocking levers are double-action pistols. The function of the decocking lever is not part of the clearing process, but to safely decock a loaded weapon so it can be carried in a loaded state more safely. In other words you load the weapon, decock it and put it in your holster, ready to shoot (since it is double-action). Single action pistols like the Glock or Colt 1911 typically have no decocking feature because it would be pointless.

I feel I must repeat for added clarity: The whole point of pulling the trigger (as the last step of clearing a weapon) is to fire the weapon (if it happens to be loaded still).

Slide locked open without a magazine I meant, same as your drill.

A removed magazine does not mean the chamber is empty. I could remove the mag, pull back the slide and lock it, and there could still be a round in the chamber. Sometimes the extractor fails. Such a weapon if dropped would, in fact, most likely result in the slide lock failing and releasing the slide, closing the action and creating a very dangerous situation. Less so in the Glock than most other handguns though because of its internal safeties, but still very undesirable.

Also, your method only works if I witness you dry firing it. If you do that and put the weapon on the bench, then go for a wizz and I come along, I have to assume the weapon is in a dangerous condition (according to the four rules), since I didn't see you dry fire it. Right?

You should always clear the weapon and demonstrate that it is cleared before handing it over to someone else. That person should then immediately clear it as well just to be safe. Any weapon you pick up should be immediately cleared by you no matter what.

[GScholz]

NEVER EVER PULL A TRIGGER ON A GUN TO ENSURE ITS EMPTY/SAFE...... NEVER!!

You always open the action and verify clear and safe by ensuring that the source of ammo is removed... Magazine, shotgun shells, etc.... then verify the chamber is empty.  You will do this step each time you pick up a gun no matter if you think its unloaded or not.  

By programming yourself to pull the trigger on a gun you assume to be empty will get you or someone else killed.  Its poor weapons handling on your part and piss poor training.  I highly recommend you get proper training from a credible source.

To the OP, there is no such thing as an "Accident" when it deals with guns, its only negligence.

Standard weapon clearing drill Norwegian Army:

Step one: Make sure the weapon is pointing in a safe direction (always).

Step two: Remove the magazine.

Step three: Visually and/or physically (with your fingers) check that the chamber is empty.

Step four: Close the slide/bolt and pull the trigger while keeping the weapon pointing in a safe direction.


Is this clear enough? (after how many posts?)

[nrshida]

Assuming you are still speaking about a Glock your assertion is incorrect. In the dry fired condition you mention the trigger remains back in the pulled position. In other words had the trigger been pulled it stays back in the rearward position and is very obvious to the observer.

That's interesting. I wouldn't know that not being a Glock expert. But I assume you still wouldn't trust the position of the trigger as an indicator of decocked? How about a chamber indicator or a a 'cocked / uncocked' indicator? How much confidence do they inspire?

I feel I must repeat for added clarity: The whole point of pulling the trigger (as the last step of clearing a weapon) is to fire the weapon (if it happens to be loaded still).

Yes I understand. Very useful information. Thank you.