Baseball HOF candidates....here we go again.

[Hajo]

Being a long time baseball fan....maybe even a historian of the game, I had to shake my head at the list of candidates. Those of us who have been able to be a fan of the game since the 50s and even before have to be discouraged.  What a joke.  Let me tell you why I think it's a joke.  Not only the rampant cheating  of these newly selected candidates but the quality of play, and the "dumbing down" of the game which started in the mid 60s so players with lesser ability could compete.  I'm watching an All-Star Game some years back.  Know who was in the outfield for the national league?  Clemente in right, Mays center and some guy named Aaron in right.  Know who was on the outfield bench for the NL?  I'll let you answer that.  The only thing I can say is incredible.  The rest of both teams lineups was just as incredible. The game as I said has been dumbed down by the quality in general of the players playing today.  We've made smaller ballparks with less foul territory to help batters, we expanded the number baseball teams which required expanding the rosters of mostly players who do not belong in triple A let alone the big league teams.  We've also forced pitchers to work the middle outside part of the plate, can't pitch inside anymore...you'll get a warning or get tossed, lowered the pitchers mound in 1968 to help batters and the list goes on.  Players used to be in the minors for at least 5 to 6 years, they knew the game when they came up.  Now they are rushed up with little knowledge of the fundamentals or fundamental talent.  Don't get me wrong there is an occasional talent like Bryce Harper of the Braves and Trout of the Angels but the quality of major league pitching has deteriorated drastically and the average play of the others is disconcerting to me. Alas the players ability has changed, the game is still great but not as fun to watch for me. I wished I had the ability to have seen the greats from the 20s and 30s also.  This is not random old guy great times memory.  This is fact.  The Golden Age of baseball is long since gone.  I hope you younger fans will take the time to read and if possible to watch clips from the past.  They threw just as hard, ran just as fast then......Played with equipment that is poor by todays standards,plus they played the game smarter with no dumbed down benefits to make the game more exciting.  Reading Suggestions:  The Boys of Summer by Roger Kahn, Babe by Robert Creamer,The Glory of their Times by Lawrence Ritter and Now Pitching Bob Feller with Bill Gilbert.
Unfortunately in some instances it is becoming the "Hall of pretty Good".....not the Hall of Fame.

[Triton28]

<snip>
Unfortunately in some instances it is becoming the "Hall of pretty Good".....not the Hall of Fame.

I've thought this for some time, myself.  Very sad what has happened to the game.  After nearly 25 years of being an avid baseball fan, I watched a handful of games this year and maybe a dozen total playoff games.

[crazyivan]

Harper, plays for the Nats. Is there a non roid user on the ballot this year Schilling?
Is there a real need to induct players every year into HOF? I mean look what a mockery Rock n' Roll hall of fame has become.

[Hajo]

Harper, plays for the Nats. Is there a non roid user on the ballot this year Schilling?
Is there a real need to induct players every year into HOF? I mean look what a mockery Rock n' Roll hall of fame has become.

I don't think there is a rule that they have to elect anyone.  But ya gotta remember, Cooperstown needs a party at least once a year.
Someone has to make money from this ya know.

[Butcher]

Baseball fans that actually know the history of baseball, are pretty split between the whole steroids era in question. While some will whine "steroids" destroyed baseball, actually baseball simply hasn't changed since the 1800s. If you look into the different eras, baseball is still a game in which some of the best players have all tried a few tricks to be the best in the game. I'm not saying ALL of the greatest players in the game - however there is a pretty sizable list of players who have done dirty deeds along the line.

Lets compare some of the early players with active players today.

Ty Cobb - an amazing ball player who played for detroit tigers, only flaw is his over aggression and short temper, willing to do anything to win a ball game, most noted for spiking players
aj pierzynski - White Sox catcher, foul mouthed and a tirade to his own club, voted by players in 2012 as one of the most hated players in MLB

John McGraw - player, manager, owner of new york giants - as a player he played in the deadball era, his tirades on and off the fields are legendary in baseball, willing to punch someone out just because he wanted his own way.
Ozzie Guillen - player, manager - whats needed to be said about ozzie? eccentric and outspoken - just look at 2012, while manager of miami marlins, he praises Fidel Castro and gets himself suspended for 5 games LOL.

While the argument goes on "but they didn't use steroids" - its been well known players in the early days used any trick in the book for an edge on the field, if it wasn't tripping someone, it was pine tar, greasing a baseball, corking the bat etc.

Steroids is simply the latest chapter in baseball, not long it will be forgotten and a new era comes about with even more interesting ways to win ball games - apparently some NFL players think Viagra is the key. What's next?

/on a personal note - I study baseball like a religion, although I don't and never will agree with steroid usage, are we going to blackball these players for doing what players did for over 100 years?

[SmokinLoon]

I'm a fan of baseball and all the good that goes with it.  I agree that baseball is not what it once was, it is too much about the money and not enough about the game, imo. 

I paid most attention to baseball in the mid and late 1980's.  I liked to watch Gary Carter, Eddie Murray, Kevin McReynolds, Ryne Sandberg, Will CLark, Andy Van Slyke, Andre Dawson, Howard Johnson, Ricky Henderson, and a host of other players.  Once the 1990's rolled in I started seeing more and more BS, and then in to the 2000's once that $&+^head Bonds started to grab all the headlines I truly let major league baseball go by the wayside.  Now I watch a lot of prep and college games when I can.  My son has shown an interest in playing and so far through 3 seasons he is showing to be a very good hitter and thrower, and an average fielder but we'll work on that.   

[Hajo]

Butcher I agree...the game is mostly the same.  However you've missed some changes.

1968  Baseball lowered the heigth of the Pitchers mound.  Reason, Gibson, Koufax, Tiant, Drysdale and others.
Baseball didn't like the fact there were relativley few .300 hitters.  They did not give the hitters a chance to adjust.
1970s'.  The decade of the cookie cutter band box stadiums built.  Shorter fences and less foul territory to give hitters
more pitches to hit.  the new stadiums of the day are nicer...but their dimensions are skewed.  Fly ball in right field is a home run
Yankee Stadium (314 ft.)  I could give other examples.

And the worst of the worst.  Expansion.  They emptied the minor leagues to fill rosters.  They bring rookies up more quickly then in the past.
Very few players actually "know" the game.  For instance....ask one to bunt.  The actual quality of the players (majority) has declined
steadily since the early 70s.  Point in case.....I'm watching the All Star Game.  NL Outfield  Aaron left, Mays Center, Clemente right.
Guess who was the NL out field bench!  The AL squad was just as loaded with Mantle, Kaline etc.  I will never NEVER see that quality
of baseball player again in those numbers.  I love the game still.  We need to go back to 8 in the American and 8 in the NL.  Way to many
teams and mediocre baseball players.  98% of the guys playing now couldn't carry the gloves of the players I've mentioned above.
There are some HOF worthy players from the late 70s and early80s...Mike Schmidt is one.  Now we have to wait decades to get someone
the calber of Schmidt etc.  BTW Pete Rose was the 2nd baseman on the NL team outfield I mentioned.

If you are younger, you don't know what I'm talking about unless you are a Historian of the game.  To see them play was a privilage that
I didn't recognize until the last 20 years.  A pity.

[Masherbrum]

The day Ron Santo made it in, it was no longer the "Hall of Fame".   Joe Jackson & Pete Rose deserved to make it in before that bum.

[Masherbrum]

Butcher I agree...the game is mostly the same.  However you've missed some changes.

1968  Baseball lowered the heigth of the Pitchers mound.  Reason, Gibson, Koufax, Tiant, Drysdale and others.
Baseball didn't like the fact there were relativley few .300 hitters.  They did not give the hitters a chance to adjust.
1970s'.  The decade of the cookie cutter band box stadiums built.  Shorter fences and less foul territory to give hitters
more pitches to hit.  the new stadiums of the day are nicer...but their dimensions are skewed.  Fly ball in right field is a home run
Yankee Stadium (314 ft.)  I could give other examples.

And the worst of the worst.  Expansion.  They emptied the minor leagues to fill rosters.  They bring rookies up more quickly then in the past.
Very few players actually "know" the game.  For instance....ask one to bunt.  The actual quality of the players (majority) has declined
steadily since the early 70s.  Point in case.....I'm watching the All Star Game.  NL Outfield  Aaron left, Mays Center, Clemente right.
Guess who was the NL out field bench!  The AL squad was just as loaded with Mantle, Kaline etc.  I will never NEVER see that quality
of baseball player again in those numbers.  I love the game still.  We need to go back to 8 in the American and 8 in the NL.  Way to many
teams and mediocre baseball players.  98% of the guys playing now couldn't carry the gloves of the players I've mentioned above.
There are some HOF worthy players from the late 70s and early80s...Mike Schmidt is one.  Now we have to wait decades to get someone
the calber of Schmidt etc.  BTW Pete Rose was the 2nd baseman on the NL team outfield I mentioned.

If you are younger, you don't know what I'm talking about unless you are a Historian of the game.  To see them play was a privilage that
I didn't recognize until the last 20 years.  A pity.

You can only be talking about the 1971 All-Star Game.   

[Hoarach]

Well there is also argument when you compare those of today's game with those of the past. 

Even those that are clean are better athletes than that of old.  You cant say that the talent of today isnt as good or better when individuals as a whole are more athletic than that of the past.  Lifting regiments are better which creates stronger and faster players than before.  This isnt just limited to baseball but all sports.  Today's athletes are bigger, faster, and stronger. 

Can you say Derek Jeter isnt one of the greatest shortstops of all time?  Most likely will make the hall of fame on the first ballot.  How about current pitchers or those that recently retired like Randy Johnson or Roy Halladay.  If anything the argument is that the batters of today are better hitters steroids or not.  Pitchers have to be better to account for that.  I honestly think its like comparing apples and oranges.  You cant compare pitchers when today's game is much different due to the better athletes etc. 

[Hajo]

Karaya.....I couldn't believe the apparent stir as to should be the AL MVP.  I couldn't believe my ears!  Trout???

Yes...he is a very good young ball player.  But MVP????   No possible fargin way!  Cabrerra yes!  A No brainer?

Youngsters coming out of the woodwork with WAR, and other stats the newer generation have come up with.

WAR= If you have to replace the player etc.  The Keyword is IF!  When IF is involved it immediately becomes fantasy.

Cabrerra.....fact won triple crown...last guy to do it???   Yaz....42 years ago.  Cabrerra hit almost 50 points higher then Trout

in the last two months of the penneant race.  Not to mention during the year he had more RBIs and HRs'.

They are doing a nice job of killing americas past time.  At one time Baseball was the #1 viewed sport.  No longer.

Wonder why?

[Hajo]

Well there is also argument when you compare those of today's game with those of the past. 

Even those that are clean are better athletes than that of old.  You cant say that the talent of today isnt as good or better when individuals as a whole are more athletic than that of the past.  Lifting regiments are better which creates stronger and faster players than before.  This isnt just limited to baseball but all sports.  Today's athletes are bigger, faster, and stronger. 

Can you say Derek Jeter isnt one of the greatest shortstops of all time?  Most likely will make the hall of fame on the first ballot.  How about current pitchers or those that recently retired like Randy Johnson or Roy Halladay.  If anything the argument is that the batters of today are better hitters steroids or not.  Pitchers have to be better to account for that.  I honestly think its like comparing apples and oranges.  You cant compare pitchers when today's game is much different due to the better athletes etc. 

remember.....ball players went back to the Farm or Steel Mill after the season.  They didn't make enough money to survive for a year (most of them)
They got into playing shape during spring training.  See the equipment they use now?  A tad better then back then dontcha think?  Did you
see any pics of the ballfields they played on from 1900 until around 1940?  They are pool tables now compared to the sparsely manicured parks of yesteryear.
Everything you say can be dabated...same for me.  Remember also workout equipment 30 to 40 years ago was not as good as they have now.
They may be better athletes.  However being a good athlete doesn't make one a great baseball player, or any other sport for that matter.

Quite frankly since I've seen players from the 50s and 60s...ya I was there.  The teams then and players were much better then they are now.
Remember also you had 8 in the american and 8 in the national. The best of the best played then. Now the best play football and basketball also.
Then the best athlete played baseball.  Big difference.  Teams stayed together then.  Obvious plus.  Now...who knows who will play on your team.

The hardest thing to do succesfully in sports is hit a sphere traveling 90mph with another sphere and hit it in fair territory.  You have .004 seconds to decide if you are going to swing.

Also you've brought up some great players..Jeter etc.  they get my vote.  Problem is there were more of them back then, less now.

[Masherbrum]

remember.....ball players went back to the Farm or Steel Mill after the season.  They didn't make enough money to survive for a year (most of them)
They got into playing shape during spring training.  See the equipment they use now?  A tad better then back then dontcha think?  Did you
see any pics of the ballfields they played on from 1900 until around 1940?  They are pool tables now compared to the sparsely manicured parks of yesteryear.
Everything you say can be dabated...same for me.  Remember also workout equipment 30 to 40 years ago was not as good as they have now.
They may be better athletes.  However being a good athlete doesn't make one a great baseball player, or any other sport for that matter.

Quite frankly since I've seen players from the 50s and 60s...ya I was there.  The teams then and players were much better then they are now.
Remember also you had 8 in the american and 8 in the national. The best of the best played then. Now the best play football and basketball also.
Then the best athlete played baseball.  Big difference.  Teams stayed together then.  Obvious plus.  Now...who knows who will play on your team.

The hardest thing to do succesfully in sports is hit a sphere traveling 90mph with another sphere and hit it in fair territory.  You have .004 seconds to decide if you are going to swing.
Also you've brought up some great players..Jeter etc.  they get my vote.  Problem is there were more of them back then, less now.

Yep.   

Wayne, in regards to Cabby.   The larger market Teams needed some jibber jabber to get their hopes up.   

[Butcher]

Well there is also argument when you compare those of today's game with those of the past. 

Even those that are clean are better athletes than that of old.  You cant say that the talent of today isnt as good or better when individuals as a whole are more athletic than that of the past.  Lifting regiments are better which creates stronger and faster players than before.  This isnt just limited to baseball but all sports.  Today's athletes are bigger, faster, and stronger. 

Problem is today's athletes have technology and time to say thanks too. Without Steroids would Barry Bonds hit so many homers? What about Hank Aaron? What happened if Aaron had steroids? What if he had the option?
Regardless its history written.... Good or bad, its still - baseball. Even after 100 years, its still alive and well while many other things have come and gone, baseball is here to stay.

If anyone hasn't seen, I recommend Ken Burns - Documentary on Baseball, even if you are mildly a fan, this series is simply outstanding in details and information.

[Hajo]

Problem is today's athletes have technology and time to say thanks too. Without Steroids would Barry Bonds hit so many homers? What about Hank Aaron? What happened if Aaron had steroids? What if he had the option?
Regardless its history written.... Good or bad, its still - baseball. Even after 100 years, its still alive and well while many other things have come and gone, baseball is here to stay.

If anyone hasn't seen, I recommend Ken Burns - Documentary on Baseball, even if you are mildly a fan, this series is simply outstanding in details and information.

I have the entire series by Ken Burns plus the book.  There is much more great reading on baseball that I suggested in an earlier post.  The best I've read is The Glory of their Times.
An author in the 60s traveled throughout the US to interview some of baseballs earliest greats to hear their stories before they passed on.  The others are Biographies.
One of the greatest thrills in my life was to actually meet Bob Feller.  A unique individual and a great american.  And to this day most consider him the best right handed pitcher in baseball.
But with Walter Johnson etc. that will always be debatable.