Author Topic: Dealing with High 109s and 190s  (Read 4814 times)

Offline Randy1

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Dealing with High 109s and 190s
« on: November 30, 2012, 07:31:48 AM »
High 109s and 190s are eating my lunch.  Here is a common situation that I get beat.  I am in a P47M say at 5000 feet above the ground say at 250 MPH climbing up or just picking up speed heading for a distant enemy base or a dogfight.  I see a 109, 190 or well, really, any fighter say 3000 feet over my plane.  They dive in and it seems my first move gets me shoot every time.

What maneuver should I make first to avoid being shot and a second move to give me a chance to have a good shooting position?

Offline Latrobe

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Re: Dealing with High 109s and 190s
« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2012, 08:29:45 AM »
For a 109, take advantage of it's bad performance at the high speeds it will be at in a dive. A 109 becomes sluggish at high speeds. A 190 will almost always be piloted by an inexperienced pilot with poor gunnery skills. They will just dive straight to you with too much speed and blow right on by.

I find making a hard break turn will defeat most diving attacks since they won't be able to make the turn at high speeds. Keep an eye on your opponent though. If he's smart then he'll see that he won't make the shot and pull back up (usually performing a high yo-yo) and re-engage from a better position. If you see this, level off and start a slow climb away from them. You want to take their altitude advantage away first either by getting co-alt or by getting them to make a mistake and come down to your alt. You will be flying defensive until you accomplish this. You may get a small chance to go offensive with a snapshot on the overshoot though, but do not follow them into a climb if you miss your shot.

-Do not try to climb with them when they overshoot, you will stall out before them and be an easy target.
-Try not to get stuck turning directly below them.
-Make tight turns INTO the attack to thwart the attack or give them the least amount of time to fire.
-Climb away from your opponent to either get co-alt or get them to make a mistake and come down to your alt.
-Let them make the first move. When they dive, make your move. If they stop their dive, stop you maneuver and continue to climb co-alt with them.


This is what has worked for me. I'm not good at explaining things, sorry if it's hard to understand or if I got something wrong. I'm sure someone has a better way of dealing with higher cons. A real trainer will be by shortly to give a better answer  :) .

Offline titanic3

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Re: Dealing with High 109s and 190s
« Reply #2 on: November 30, 2012, 10:10:53 AM »
Practice SA. The trick is spotting them before it's too late. If you had saw them at 6K, you wouldve already started to take defensive measures.

If you do get jumped like in the scenario you described, stop climbing, dive or level out and get to at least 300mph (in every plane). Once the enemy begins his attack, split S into the direction of the attacker. The lower you are beneath their nose, the steeper they have to dive and the more difficult their shot is.

Rinse and repeat this step until you have equalized the E or he screws up and offers you a guns solution.

  the game is concentrated on combat, not on shaking the screen.

semp

Offline Wiley

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Re: Dealing with High 109s and 190s
« Reply #3 on: November 30, 2012, 10:57:27 AM »
Latrobe's advice is good.  Bear in mind, there are many ways to go about BnZ defense.  I don't use Titanic's approach because it loses alt aggressively.  If you've got alt to play with, and you're against a higher 109, it has its advantages because it keeps the fight fast, where a P47 is better off against a 109.  It does work and is a very effective way of definitely avoiding the shot, I just personally don't like the alt loss.

To add to what's been said, based on the scenario you described the first thing you should do when you see a bandit is go level.  If you're really slow, like on autoclimb, maybe even go into a shallow dive to get some speed up.  Getting up to decent speed (around 300) initially is more important than alt.

When defending against a guy with alt, I feel it's important to avoid the natural tendency to want to climb hard.  If you do that, you're making yourself an easier target.  My normal schtick is to turn toward the guy nose slightly low to ruin his shot.  I'm typically wanting him coming in from about 2 o'clock high or so when he's in range for the shot.  As he gets to around 800 yards, I also either pull up, or push down.  You never want to be moving in a straight line when he takes his shot.

Another thing you want to do, is if he is in gunnery range you want to roll your plane so it's skinny to him.  Roll so your wings are in line with him or close to in line so he has a smaller target to shoot at.  This is easiest to illustrate in the P38.  From the top, it's a freaking HUGE target.  Roll so you're sideways to him, it's much much smaller.  Jugs make a pretty big target from the top too.

Your goal when someone's BnZing you is to equalize your E with his.  You have to balance that with moving enough for him to miss you.  That's the tricky part.  The attacker is trying to anticipate where you will be to put his bullets in front of you.  Your job is to move in such a way that he guesses wrong.

To be safest, you can haul hard on the stick, so your plane is turning hard when he gets within gunnery range.  The downside with that is you bleed a lot of E doing it.  I recommend in the beginning, turn more aggressively to be sure to get out of his way.  It costs you more E, but you'll survive.

As you become better at reading planes on the way in, you will get a feel for the timing you need to have to move in such a way he can't get guns on.  I actually start my setup for him to miss me when he's about 2000 yards out.  I rarely pull more than 2 g's to slip a BnZer.  If I'm otherwise occupied and he surprises me, then I have to pull harder.

That comes with practice though.  I spent about 6-8 months when I started this game almost constantly intentionally looking for high bandits to practice my defense.  I consider mine passable, but I still get tagged every once in a while by guys with good gunnery.

The reason I try for the smoother, E retaining turns is because my goal is to get him to miss, and while he's resetting, shallow climb away from him.  I shallow climb at about 1-1.5k/minute, and only if I'm above 250mph.  Once my indicated hits 250 I reduce my climb rate to maintain it if he's not pressing, or start turning back into him if he's coming back.

The shallower of an angle he has to get to you, the easier of a time you have avoiding his attack.  I just want to reiterate one point Latrobe mentioned, the absolute WORST place to be is directly down from a higher bandit.  From directly above you, it is the easiest possible position for him to get guns on you.

tl;dr:  Make smooth, E retaining turns to avoid his gunnery, and shallow climb away from him when you're able.  Keep your speed up when you're able.

Wiley.
If you think you are having a 1v1 in the Main Arena, your SA has failed you.

JG11

Offline Randy1

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Re: Dealing with High 109s and 190s
« Reply #4 on: November 30, 2012, 11:34:01 AM »
That was a great read on all of the replies.   They were clear replies and easy to understand.   

One strong point I see in the replies is don't show your hand too soon or the attacker will have time to adjust.  I had not really thought about that point before.  In my mind was, move quickly and that was usually without pinning down the attacker's intent.

I also picked up in y'all's replies to not only be vigilant outside the plane but be equally important to watch those gauges.  I know I have at times looked down and had to search the panel for the airspeed and or altimeter at a crucial moment.

Give me a few days to work all of this into my flight skills and I will post back on how it is going.

Thanks for the help.

Offline ink

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Re: Dealing with High 109s and 190s
« Reply #5 on: November 30, 2012, 11:52:50 AM »
here is a good film of dealing with a high con....then dealing with more that get ALT on ya....

its in the Ki84 so a bit different then the 47....


my first bit of advice is get into a plane that can really fight :D



http://www.mediafire.com/?5d757pf7xd3et23

Offline Wiley

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Re: Dealing with High 109s and 190s
« Reply #6 on: November 30, 2012, 12:06:08 PM »
Oh!  Forgot one of the other most important things.  If you're in a position where you survived the first pass, and he's making multiple ones after that, don't do exactly the same thing to avoid every time.  Adjust the angles slightly, and sometimes greatly.  You can sometimes get away with 2 times doing it similar, most people will expect it the third though, and anticipate better.

Myself, if I'm BnZing someone, I get into the doublethink and assume if his second avoidance is starting off looking the same, he's probably going to do the same thing again.  Sometimes I'll do it identically twice if I think I can get away with it, then use the third one to try to use his anticipation against him.

One of the other things that stuck with me from the guy that trained me is, always anticipate what the guy is going to do next, and act on it if you can.  Sometimes you'll be wrong, but when you're right, it puts you in a much better position than if you just react to him.

Wiley.
If you think you are having a 1v1 in the Main Arena, your SA has failed you.

JG11

Offline Randy1

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Re: Dealing with High 109s and 190s
« Reply #7 on: November 30, 2012, 12:55:00 PM »
After  watching the video and reading Wiley's additional information then going back and reading all the replies.  I need to go searching for those 109's and take a beating till I can get past the fear of being jumped which leads to slow reactions.

Now I have a good plan so I don't have to stumble for what to do.

Ink, I was worried I was one of your victims in that film.  Film shots of me being shot down of late are easy to come by I am afraid. :o

Great stuff in the all the replies.

Offline ink

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Re: Dealing with High 109s and 190s
« Reply #8 on: November 30, 2012, 01:03:09 PM »
After  watching the video and reading Wiley's additional information then going back and reading all the replies.  I need to go searching for those 109's and take a beating till I can get past the fear of being jumped which leads to slow reactions.

Now I have a good plan so I don't have to stumble for what to do.

Ink, I was worried I was one of your victims in that film.  Film shots of me being shot down of late are easy to come by I am afraid. :o

Great stuff in the all the replies.

 :lol

hey man we all started as noobs and took many deaths, its just a matter of not getting frustrated, the learning curve is steep and will take time, but the rewards and fun to be had is well worth it....the best thing you could do is take a trainer or a vet who fights(not all vets actually fight) and ask to go to the TA and have them jump you from a hi position....and keep doing it, whats great about the TA is you dont have to waist time rerolling so you can get much more actual fighting time....I am not a "trainer" but I have done nothing but fight in AH since tour 52.....I am not the best stick in the game....but I am sure I could help ya out, so if you see me on and want to go to TA or DA just ask. :salute

Offline Hap

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Re: Dealing with High 109s and 190s
« Reply #9 on: November 30, 2012, 03:36:08 PM »
What maneuver should I make first to avoid being shot and a second move to give me a chance to have a good shooting position?

Not being cheeky, but consider upping 1 base back and meet those same guys with a 3k advantage on your end tootling about at 380 tas. 

Offline FLS

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Re: Dealing with High 109s and 190s
« Reply #10 on: November 30, 2012, 04:07:28 PM »
High 109s and 190s are eating my lunch.  Here is a common situation that I get beat.  I am in a P47M say at 5000 feet above the ground say at 250 MPH climbing up or just picking up speed heading for a distant enemy base or a dogfight.  I see a 109, 190 or well, really, any fighter say 3000 feet over my plane.  They dive in and it seems my first move gets me shoot every time.

What maneuver should I make first to avoid being shot and a second move to give me a chance to have a good shooting position?

You should position yourself so that the bandit has to turn towards you, then you fly inside his turn so that he can't pull enough lead to shoot you. It's best if you don't think about maneuvers and instead just focus on the bandit and visualizing his turn circle so that you know where to fly to.  Point yourself behind the bandit, don't chase him with your gunsight.

Be careful not to get too slow, it's hard to maneuver when you're slow.

Offline Oldman731

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Re: Dealing with High 109s and 190s
« Reply #11 on: November 30, 2012, 04:50:30 PM »
Not being cheeky, but consider upping 1 base back and meet those same guys with a 3k advantage on your end tootling about at 380 tas. 


Won't ever learn to deal with high bandits if he's always one of them!

- oldman

Offline homersipes

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Re: Dealing with High 109s and 190s
« Reply #12 on: November 30, 2012, 07:04:15 PM »
I am not an expert at this game but sometimes I do manage to hold my own and put up a good fight, but no matter how many times I get shot down I just keep re-upping, I enjoy talking to everyone in game and just here to have a good time :cheers: :salute

Offline morfiend

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Re: Dealing with High 109s and 190s
« Reply #13 on: November 30, 2012, 07:42:06 PM »
  This might help!   


    http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/


  Once there look for Trainers files,then download Murdr's evasive reversal lesson package.  You will need to unzip the file and run AH film viewer but watch Murdr's barrel roll defence film,this is 1 of the best evasives to use when being bounced from above.
  Try to keep your speed close to corner speed and do the break turn at near blackout,your enemy will never be able to follow you and if he tries will blackout and be easy meat!



     :salute

Offline Randy1

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Re: Dealing with High 109s and 190s
« Reply #14 on: December 01, 2012, 06:54:26 AM »
All y'all's advice paid off big time on the last day of this tour. 

Not only did I not get shot down by a higher enemy in a one on one situation but I took away a couple of opportunities to be jumped by keeping a cool head.  I will get jumped and loose again no doubt but now I have a good fighting chance.

I do need, as has been suggested, to visualize  what move the other guy is making so  that I can better take advantage of his miss shot opportunity.

Thanks again for all the advice.  Still got a long way to go but this was a big step forward.