Dealing with High 109s and 190s

[ink]

...... The M with the WEP can tackle any MA bird with reasonable odds, even at 5k........

 

no it cant


care to test out that theory?

[Debrody]

Another note on roll rate. Sometimes, planes with a good rudder can "out roll" a plane without a good rudder even though on paper, it shouldn't. Use your rudder! In a rolling scissors, it can force an overshoot, helps you roll faster, and place you at awkward angles making the other guy's aim a hard job.

Also, slows you down, what is an other vital part of the rolling scissors.

[Tank-Ace]

It is true that the P47 is a high alt bird, but the M has excellent low alt performance as well, as long as it still has the WEP - never waste all of it on the climb, save it for combat! The M with the WEP can tackle any MA bird with reasonable odds, even at 5k.

Like I said. It can do it, its just a bit out of its element. Its like a high-alt 190, it can do the job, its just not the best up there.

An all out dive is an escape maneuver. It means giving up the fight. 5k is not a lot and if the 109 (assume K or G14) pilot has any clue, he will easily catch up to you on the deck and then force you to fight at even worse condition where you have no room for vertical maneuvers.

HIGHLY situational. If you're near your own base, the 109 probably won't want to drop to low alt an engage with a reduced E-advantage. Last thing he'll want to do is fight 2 or 3v1.

If you're near the enemy's base, its a bit irrelevent, since you shouldn't be ingressing at 5k in a jug, and if you're egressing you're doing so for a reason, and are probably out of options.

The 190 has almost no roll rate advantage over the P47 - numbers lie. When the roll rate is fast enough to challenge the reaction of the pilot, it does not matter any more. If you can do a 90 deg bank in 0.1, 0.01 or 0.001 seconds, it really does not matter, unless all you are trying to do is to beat the network update rate and appear to be micro-warping around on the other machine. Against 190s it is vital that you do not allow them to fix their aim and time the shot. You have to keep your orientation towards them changing, so they have to keep correcting. This means movement in all 3 axes. Example: roll left and go into a break turn, then follow with a loaded roll to the left till you are in a right hand turn (think half a barrel roll). From his point of view, you are moving is a curved line that is difficult to lead with the guns and that will force him to steepen his dive if he tries to. By this point the 190 will either take a wild shot and break off or be sucked into a rolling scissors, where you have a good chance to reverse him if he is not careful with his speed.

You miss what I'm saying. The 190's roll compared to the P-47's doesn't put the P-47 at any real disadvantage in direct combat. But the 190's high rate of roll, combined with its love of speed, makes their attacks harder to avoid, since they can follow most maneuvers.

[Hazard69]

I have noticed other pilots when picking a target will pick a  P47 or P38 first if they have a choice so it makes choosing a P47 like putting a big bullseye on the tail.  I guess because they are bigger and easier to hit.  I noticed too in the radio chatter, a P47 of P38 gets more attention on average in a furbal or airfield attack.

Roflmao, welcome to the 'flying bullseyes' club. 

I know just how you feel. My 38 is always a con and bullet magnet

I personally believe its more than just the fact that they are big targets.

P38s and P47s have over the years been given the reputation of a JABO truck. So everyone expects a 38 or jug to almost always be heavy and focused on porking fields rather than actually fighting.

[bozon]

 

no it cant


care to test out that theory?

It has already been tested.
For you a D11 with the default skin should be enough.

[Randy1]

I have tried to pay special attention to the situations which I get beat so I can ask or figure out a way to win more often in the P47M.  At least from my limited experience in a furbal the 47M does really well for me. 

One on one with a spit or the like with equal E, well, that is a different story.  I loose those much more than I would like making me want to join the long list of spit and 51 drivers.  I have to get lucky on those encounters or last long enough for the spit or like plane to make a mistake. 

Any situation where the spit like plane can't pay full attention to the 47M is my best situation.

[titanic3]

It has already been tested.
For you a D11 with the default skin should be enough.

I wouldnt say "all" MA birds but a good 3/4 of them. 109s, 190A5/D9, La-Las, Spits, Yak, Brews, Zeroes, N1K. Probably a few more I might have forgotten.

P38 vs P47, now that's a fun fight. I suppose if the Jug can't quickly dispatch the 38, the 38 will eventually get the upper hand.

This is in an equal E situation that is.

[bozon]

I wouldnt say "all" MA birds but a good 3/4 of them. 109s, 190A5/D9, La-Las, Spits, Yak, Brews, Zeroes, N1K. Probably a few more I might have forgotten.

P38 vs P47, now that's a fun fight. I suppose if the Jug can't quickly dispatch the 38, the 38 will eventually get the upper hand.

This is in an equal E situation that is.

It really depends on lots of things. The problem with duels is that unlike in the MA, there is no pressure on the attacker (the one who obtained the initiative). For example, vs. a Spit16 or 109K, if they survive the first two moves, they will tend to go up up up until they build enough E advantage to play safe BnZ. Alternatively, the attacker, if positioned well will not be afraid to blow away all its speed to try and saddle up the on Jug. In a duel the Jug will not try to run away even if it is clear that it was bested.

In the MA on the other hand, if they do not finish the Jug quickly, such moves will get them killed, because someone is sure to pass by and blast them away as they play helicopter at 50 mph. A spit16 that blew away all its speed to try and saddle up risks the M-Jug hitting its mega WEP and leaving it behind. Short intensive fights where the opponent is under pressure to finish the fight quickly play to the benefit of the Jug. The M Jug is not the best furball plane, but it is good enough to let pilot skill be a decisive factor.

[titanic3]

It really depends on lots of things. The problem with duels is that unlike in the MA, there is no pressure on the attacker (the one who obtained the initiative). For example, vs. a Spit16 or 109K, if they survive the first two moves, they will tend to go up up up until they build enough E advantage to play safe BnZ. Alternatively, the attacker, if positioned well will not be afraid to blow away all its speed to try and saddle up the on Jug. In a duel the Jug will not try to run away even if it is clear that it was bested.

In the MA on the other hand, if they do not finish the Jug quickly, such moves will get them killed, because someone is sure to pass by and blast them away as they play helicopter at 50 mph. A spit16 that blew away all its speed to try and saddle up risks the M-Jug hitting its mega WEP and leaving it behind. Short intensive fights where the opponent is under pressure to finish the fight quickly play to the benefit of the Jug. The M Jug is not the best furball plane, but it is good enough to let pilot skill be a decisive factor.

Eh, not my style of play but whatever floats your boat. I fight to the death as long as there's still a chance, regardless of how small it may be. Pilot skill IMO involves some sort of ACM, people who make passes at 450mph and pull up aren't "skillful" in my opinion. Yea, they're good at what they do, E management, gunnery, SA, whatever. But I'll never consider you "skillful" until you can do something else other than shoot and run.

[mthrockmor]

All great advice. One more...

If you are in a PonyD set your auto climb to 260knts. At this speed you have a climb rate of 2k/min through about 15k. This gives you plenty of climb and you always have enough speed for defensive maneuvers. By the time you reach 15k your indicated speed remains 260 but actual is over 300.

Dogfighting is all about positioning first, getting them to overshoot second, accurate shots thirds. Speed is life!

Boo

[ink]

It has already been tested.
For you a D11 with the default skin should be enough.

getting a kill on me one time in the MA....means nothing....I am guessing that is what you are talking about although I don't remember any fights with you 1vs1 in the MA.....lets go to the DA you take any jug ill take my plane the KI and see if you can even put rounds near me.....talk smack..... back it up.....you seem quite positive you can kill me in my KI while you are in a JUG....

there is an old saying..."Put up or shut up"   

[Debrody]

Chill, both of you.
An MA "opportunity kill" means nothing just the same way as a DA ki84 vs jug one.

[ink]

Chill, both of you.
An MA "opportunity kill" means nothing just the same way as a DA ki84 vs jug one.

Debrody telling someone to "chill" oh my word I love ya bro...but that made me laugh.

[Babalonian]

Ironic or not, Debrody is right.  Take the egos out of the HnT forum you tarts.  (there's better waters to use your chum in  )

I have tried to pay special attention to the situations which I get beat so I can ask or figure out a way to win more often in the P47M.  At least from my limited experience in a furbal the 47M does really well for me. 

One on one with a spit or the like with equal E, well, that is a different story.  I loose those much more than I would like making me want to join the long list of spit and 51 drivers.  I have to get lucky on those encounters or last long enough for the spit or like plane to make a mistake. 

Any situation where the spit like plane can't pay full attention to the 47M is my best situation.

There's a lot to go into, but to be brief in your co-E spit situation, you're greatest strength in that situation is to run via diving away.  You can out dive a spit but most spits can out acelerate, climb and out turn you.  He wins as soon as you decide to start turning to fight. 

Many consider it a coward's play (especialy some individuals participating in "your discussion" here), but it's just the honest answer to your honest question - if you want to win in that situation; run away and disengage, climb higher and gain the E/alt advantage over the spit, come back in with it and utilise it against him.  If at any point you equalise with him, nose down and run away and repeat.

[Randy1]

.....I am not the best stick in the game....but I am sure I could help ya out, so if you see me on and want to go to TA or DA just ask.

Ink, you and I had a run in the other night in a 109 P47M one on one.  I got whooped by a stickman that was doggone good.  I think I made you earn it at least for a little bit.  Twice I tried to get you overshoot and I only got one peak.  I will save the film to watch for training myself.  I had one chance to pull underneath you but didn't so maybe next time I will no better.  Thanks for a great lesson.