Author Topic: HTC Overmodeled the Brewster!  (Read 8105 times)

Offline Wmaker

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Re: HTC Overmodeled the Brewster!
« Reply #30 on: December 30, 2012, 04:07:13 AM »
The finnish version did have 1000hp engine though: http://www.warbirdforum.com/winston.htm

Indeed it did. The very document I posted mentions it. That's why I posted it. I had underlined the mention about the Nominal Power Setting for another purpose. The next sentence mentions that the max. power output is 1000hp at sea level.
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Offline Wmaker

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Re: HTC Overmodeled the Brewster!
« Reply #31 on: December 30, 2012, 04:35:20 AM »
I mean really, it isn't like the Finn's were at the fore front of aviation development.  Training?  Technology? ACM's? The RAF, Luftwaffe, USAAF, Japan, and even the Soviets can all claim a piece of that pie.  Heck, even the Poles can at least stand on the PZL P.11 as an achievement.  Did the Finn's get some uber training that no one else knew about?

I quite wouldn't use the wording that you used in your last question. But to answer it "yes" is far more correct answer than "no".

Here's a good article on Finnish fighter training: http://www.sci.fi/~fta/fintac-1.htm

Another good article: http://www.sci.fi/~fta/zimbo-01.htm Col Richard "Zimbo" Lorentz - the creator of the Finnish Fighter Arm

Those articles should answer your questions very well.

I have question for you though. Why did you conclude that the training in Finland couldn't have been "in the fore front of aviation"? Is it because we are a small nation and because it is cold here during winters? I ask because it certainly didn't come from actually reading about the subject. :)

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Offline bozon

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Re: HTC Overmodeled the Brewster!
« Reply #32 on: December 30, 2012, 06:35:30 AM »
I for one am not a guy to hop on any bandwagon and I love to play the Devil's Advocate.  The question begs of pilot quality: Were the Finn's that good or were the Soviets that bad?  I mean really, it isn't like the Finn's were at the fore front of aviation development.  Training?  Technology? ACM's? The RAF, Luftwaffe, USAAF, Japan, and even the Soviets can all claim a piece of that pie.  Heck, even the Poles can at least stand on the PZL P.11 as an achievement.  Did the Finn's get some uber training that no one else knew about? Did they dump in some super juice in the fuel tank when no one was watching? I will give the Finn's the benefit of the doubt with the k/d ratio, it is impressive.  But when supposedly the Buffalo was the bottom of the barrel in the PTO, ETO, and MTO, yet do so well up north in the frigid air over Finland one has to wonder was it the Finn's that were really that good or was it is the Soviets who were really that bad???  And... just how much effort would it take for HTC to add in the version, the version we all were expecting in the first place, to be added in to AH because in EW scenarios the Brewster has every advantage over the Zekes and little needs to be said about that.   :headscratch:   

Please do not assume that I do not respect the Finnish pilots for their achievements and sacrifices in protecting their country, I hold them in nothing but the highest regards.       
It was not like the Finns were superpilots and the Russians were the equivallent of two weeker number guys, but the quality disparity was likely high. It is not just how much you train your pilots, is it HOW you train your pilots and how you select them in the first place. If the Finns could select from the top 0.01% of their population and the Russian just took anyone that could sing the communist party anthem, you'd get a huge quality difference no matter how you train them.

Why are the Israeli pilots considered so good? The IAF gets first pick of all recruits and since in Israel service is obligatory, they effectively get to pick from the best potentials of the entire population (in countries with voluntary service who usually enlist? there is already a population bias there). There is also a very cruel filtering process and only few get to finish their training (less than 10% of those that started). The number of advanced training hours is perhaps high, but not exceedingly so relative to other airforces. It is the intensity and the level of training followed by very effective in-your-face debrief without any consideration towards anyone's ego. For example, the IAF insists on practicing multi-plane dogfighting at cannon ranges even though this is not likely to represent modern aerial combat. They consider it good general skills training for the pilots. When practicing actual tactics they usually set up very complicated scenarios. Any country that will follow that pattern will end up with a high quality airforce at the expense of size and expenses per combat AC.

So quality is difficult to compare since there are no objective parameters. The older the technology, the more was the emphasis on the individual skill of the pilots. In Finland vs. Russia I believe the quality made a huge difference. It was not in the genes, it was in the selection, training and tactics employed. The quality of the plane was a modifier on top of that.
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Offline Karnak

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Re: HTC Overmodeled the Brewster!
« Reply #33 on: December 30, 2012, 08:10:50 AM »
wasnt that the germans?
Werner Mölders, in spanish civil war?
I know wikipedia isn't the best source, but:

Quote
From Wikipedia's Finger Four article:
The formation was developed by several air forces independently in the 1930s. The Finnish Air Force adopted it during 1934-1935.[1] Luftwaffe pilots developed the formation independently in 1938 during the Spanish Civil War, and were the first to use it in combat.

This is the article Wikipedia references in support of that claim:
http://www.sci.fi/~fta/FAFhist.htm
« Last Edit: December 30, 2012, 08:12:37 AM by Karnak »
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Offline Charge

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Re: HTC Overmodeled the Brewster!
« Reply #34 on: December 30, 2012, 08:29:34 AM »
"The only thing I personally doubt is the Brewster's ability to to dive."

The problem was not that it could not drive but if it could withstand the stress. The aforementioned Cpt Karhunen once got the BW in a high speed dive and upon pull-up the wing tips bent slightly upwards and stayed there and the plane had to be sent for repairs.

The interesting thing was that Karhunen said that the plane was a bit better to fly with bent wings... AFAIK that is a somewhat undiscovered field of aerodynamics as the wings are much easier and cheaper to manufature from straight spars so it is possible that such feature has not been even examined thoroughly.

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Offline MrRiplEy[H]

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Re: HTC Overmodeled the Brewster!
« Reply #35 on: December 30, 2012, 09:10:23 AM »
"The only thing I personally doubt is the Brewster's ability to to dive."

The problem was not that it could not drive but if it could withstand the stress. The aforementioned Cpt Karhunen once got the BW in a high speed dive and upon pull-up the wing tips bent slightly upwards and stayed there and the plane had to be sent for repairs.

The interesting thing was that Karhunen said that the plane was a bit better to fly with bent wings... AFAIK that is a somewhat undiscovered field of aerodynamics as the wings are much easier and cheaper to manufature from straight spars so it is possible that such feature has not been even examined thoroughly.

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Offline SmokinLoon

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Re: HTC Overmodeled the Brewster!
« Reply #36 on: December 30, 2012, 09:37:12 AM »
I have question for you though. Why did you conclude that the training in Finland couldn't have been "in the fore front of aviation"? Is it because we are a small nation and because it is cold here during winters? I ask because it certainly didn't come from actually reading about the subject. :)

Perhaps it is the lack of notation in aviation history.  I'm not seeing much in the name of aircraft development, air combat maneuvers, or pilot training that originated in Finland.

I will certainly read more on the subjects starting with the links you provided. Like I said I've not ever discounted the Finnish pilots or their feats, one just has to wonder though what were the primary factors in their trouncing the Soviets. 

Also, one has to wonder how the Finn's would have fared if whatever reason the Soviets and Finn's fought alongside each other at least in the early stages of the war (Germans invades Sweden and Finland too?) and the Finns took their Brewsters up against the German 109's and 190's?  Different story?     
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Offline Bizman

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Re: HTC Overmodeled the Brewster!
« Reply #37 on: December 30, 2012, 09:59:05 AM »
They are crazy, and drunk! It helps when fighting Russians. ;)

Actually the Finns seemed to have been disciplined when flying. The late Mauno Fräntilä told us the Germans had been quite astonished because the Finns didn't take any alcohol with the dinner before leaving for home with their new 109's.

AH is a totally different thing, though. You seldom can witness a sober Finn in the cartoon skies.  :cheers:

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Offline pervert

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Re: HTC Overmodeled the Brewster!
« Reply #38 on: December 30, 2012, 11:25:55 AM »
It was not like the Finns were superpilots 

I wouldn't bet on it, watched a lot of programmes about them in second world war very impressive, my favourite was them sneaking in and machine gunning a camp of Russians in the middle of the night then buggering off and the Russians starting to shoot each other  :banana: :rock

Offline Torquila

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Re: HTC Overmodeled the Brewster!
« Reply #39 on: December 30, 2012, 11:43:32 AM »
You seldom can witness a sober Finn in the cartoon skies.  :cheers:



This.

Offline BaldEagl

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Re: HTC Overmodeled the Brewster!
« Reply #40 on: December 30, 2012, 12:02:08 PM »
It was not like the Finns were superpilots.

Sure they were.  It was all that ski jumping.
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Offline Wmaker

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Re: HTC Overmodeled the Brewster!
« Reply #41 on: December 30, 2012, 12:36:23 PM »
Perhaps it is the lack of notation in aviation history.  I'm not seeing much in the name of aircraft development, air combat maneuvers, or pilot training that originated in Finland.

Ok. Personally I'm rather careful in my assumptions on any subject I'm not very familiar of. Anyway, as far as combat tactics/training goes, I think one could say by definition that they were in the "fore front" in the world during the late thirties. One obvious example is the adaptation of finger four instead of vic formations as one of the first (if not the first) air forces in the world.


Also, one has to wonder how the Finn's would have fared if whatever reason the Soviets and Finn's fought alongside each other at least in the early stages of the war (Germans invades Sweden and Finland too?) and the Finns took their Brewsters up against the German 109's and 190's?  Different story?    

That is a very broad question with a big number of variables but as a quick general answer I'd have to say that they'd have clearly more difficult time against the German, yes.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2012, 02:17:55 PM by Wmaker »
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Offline bangsbox

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Re: HTC Overmodeled the Brewster!
« Reply #42 on: December 30, 2012, 12:49:42 PM »
I know wikipedia isn't the best source, but:

This is the article Wikipedia references in support of that claim:
http://www.sci.fi/~fta/FAFhist.htm

fair enough <S>

Offline Debrody

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Re: HTC Overmodeled the Brewster!
« Reply #43 on: December 30, 2012, 07:06:29 PM »
The Finns were extremely well trained while the russians werent, to pharse mildly.
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Offline Megalodon

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Re: HTC Overmodeled the Brewster!
« Reply #44 on: December 30, 2012, 10:50:44 PM »
No amount of repeating will make this nonsense true.

(Last time Megalodon was at it: http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,327730.0.html)

About Brewster's power settings from primary source data coming straight from manufacturer:
(Image removed from quote.)
Source: Brewster Aeronautical Corporation Report 350: Detail Specification for Model 239 Airplane Class VF

<Shrug> It's the exact same Motor in the F3F-3  ...some how the B-239 version it makes 50hp more power and does it indefinitely.  Other planes <B-18, CW-21, P-36 and the DC-3 ...  etc> the motor was in when tested didn't make the Estimated Max Hypothetical HP your #113a "It's a Guess" document has to say.   :lol

Either way....the plane didn't fly around like a Bee on its max take off setting of (8-950hp) 100% of the time.. actually it didn't do it for more than 5 mins!

 :cheers:
Okay..Add 2 Country's at once, Australia and France next plane update Add ...CAC Boomerang and the Dewoitine D.520