Author Topic: Isoroku Yamamoto, the Commander-in-Chief of the Combined Fleet  (Read 2808 times)

Offline Plawranc

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Re: Isoroku Yamamoto, the Commander-in-Chief of the Combined Fleet
« Reply #45 on: January 05, 2013, 08:03:46 PM »
The United States attitude to Empire is the same as the British model. Conquer very few nations wholly, but use its influence to FORCE the sovereign government to do as instructed.

In 1854 the US Navy and Marine Corps, arrived off of Tokyo Bay (Edo) and declared that unless Japan opened up their ports to trade with the United States, the USA would declare war, invade Japan, remove the Emperor and the Shogunate and FORCE Japan to agree to conditions of trade and sovereignty dictated by the USA.

My point is, how is Japan and the USA different?

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Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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Re: Isoroku Yamamoto, the Commander-in-Chief of the Combined Fleet
« Reply #46 on: January 05, 2013, 08:46:47 PM »
The United States attitude to Empire is the same as the British model. Conquer very few nations wholly, but use its influence to FORCE the sovereign government to do as instructed.

In 1854 the US Navy and Marine Corps, arrived off of Tokyo Bay (Edo) and declared that unless Japan opened up their ports to trade with the United States, the USA would declare war, invade Japan, remove the Emperor and the Shogunate and FORCE Japan to agree to conditions of trade and sovereignty dictated by the USA.

My point is, how is Japan and the USA different?



There is about 85 years between those two periods. Your point is entirely invalid.
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Offline Rino

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Re: Isoroku Yamamoto, the Commander-in-Chief of the Combined Fleet
« Reply #47 on: January 06, 2013, 09:38:57 AM »
     Doesn't really matter Savage, good old Plawranc has been anti American since the day he logged on.  He has his opinion and no
point that conflicts with that opinion with be considered.
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Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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Re: Isoroku Yamamoto, the Commander-in-Chief of the Combined Fleet
« Reply #48 on: January 06, 2013, 09:58:01 AM »
     Doesn't really matter Savage, good old Plawranc has been anti American since the day he logged on.  He has his opinion and no
point that conflicts with that opinion with be considered.

I couldn't care less about him. The point is to give people something to read besides the B.S.
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Offline Karnak

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Re: Isoroku Yamamoto, the Commander-in-Chief of the Combined Fleet
« Reply #49 on: January 06, 2013, 10:31:06 AM »
I couldn't care less about him. The point is to give people something to read besides the B.S.
He seems to view things outside of historical context and through a lens of "Somehow, someway this must be the fault of the United States of America."
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Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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Re: Isoroku Yamamoto, the Commander-in-Chief of the Combined Fleet
« Reply #50 on: January 06, 2013, 01:12:21 PM »
He seems to view things outside of historical context and through a lens of "Somehow, someway this must be the fault of the United States of America."

Well of course. There are those who will ignore all fact and logic in order to cling to their agenda.
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Offline zack1234

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Re: Isoroku Yamamoto, the Commander-in-Chief of the Combined Fleet
« Reply #51 on: January 06, 2013, 02:51:43 PM »
I have a book by Avril Harriman who was in the Roosevelt government :old:

He described how it was the British Empire who were seen as a threat to USA interests not the Japanese :old:

Under the British Empire the majority of British people were living in poverty.

Without the Empire they are all fat and have 2 cars :rofl   
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Offline GScholz

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Re: Isoroku Yamamoto, the Commander-in-Chief of the Combined Fleet
« Reply #52 on: January 07, 2013, 09:11:24 PM »
There is about 85 years between those two periods. Your point is entirely invalid.

Not wanting to fan the flames, but that event was a major casus belli in Japan. "The black ships" is how the Japanese refer to the western ships (not just the U.S., but the European powers as well) that visited them in the 16th to 19th century. In Japan Commodore Perry's actions are synonymous with "gunboat diplomacy".

85 years is only two to three generations. We see today how Japanese actions in China before, and during, WWII are affecting global politics and military posturing today, 70+ years later.
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Offline Babalonian

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Re: Isoroku Yamamoto, the Commander-in-Chief of the Combined Fleet
« Reply #53 on: January 08, 2013, 05:07:58 PM »
     Well it's the wrong model P-38, but I think only Guppy will have trouble with that :D    The 339th was flying
Gs but those are later model Js or Ls with the large air inlets instead of the G small inlets.

P-38G:
(Image removed from quote.)

     I'm ok with it, at least they used the reasonably correct aircraft  :aok

Also, maybe it's just the dweeb in me, but no DTs or hardpoints for DTs, which I'd almost bet a lunch that the P-38s had equiped on that mission.

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Offline Babalonian

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Re: Isoroku Yamamoto, the Commander-in-Chief of the Combined Fleet
« Reply #54 on: January 08, 2013, 06:14:05 PM »
The United States attitude to Empire is the same as the British model. Conquer very few nations wholly, but use its influence to FORCE the sovereign government to do as instructed.

In 1854 the US Navy and Marine Corps, arrived off of Tokyo Bay (Edo) and declared that unless Japan opened up their ports to trade with the United States, the USA would declare war, invade Japan, remove the Emperor and the Shogunate and FORCE Japan to agree to conditions of trade and sovereignty dictated by the USA.

My point is, how is Japan and the USA different?



I think the 1854 expedition is the seeding of Japan's leadership adopting their ill-fated "what we want, we'll take" mentality with expansionism less than a century later.  To a degree we wrote their first book with them on how to compromise and get what you need/want. 

However, their fanaticism and belief that the only wrong was to disgrace or disobey their living god (the Emperor), their unquestioning devotion to their Emperor and the leaders he deligated roles to and assigned to lead his people - to put it mildly, were wrong (they were definitely selfish, perverse and even barbaric).

The case can be clearly settled with the Japanese and their own word "Kamikaze" and what the word was defined (and changed) in their culture pre-1850 to post-1945 - here's a hint, the US didn't (nor did any other country) influence the Japanese definition of a word within their own language and culture.

If one thinks of that word and has the vision pop into mind of a pilot sacrificing himself in an aircraft for something greater than themselves - then the perverse and barbaric nature of that empire and it's leaders, and the decisions they made, is evident (and this debate is over). 

Irony: a series of typhoons that saved their island nation in the 12th century from the fleets of barbaric Mongolian raiders (thus it's translation into "god/devine-wind") is now used today to underscore the barbaric nature of Imperial Japan and its leaders during the 19th century.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2013, 06:29:08 PM by Babalonian »
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Offline GScholz

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Re: Isoroku Yamamoto, the Commander-in-Chief of the Combined Fleet
« Reply #55 on: January 08, 2013, 07:42:06 PM »
I must say that I disagree with the notion that soldiers willingly, and knowingly, sacrificing their lives for their nation is indicative of a perverse and barbaric nature of that nation. Most recipients of the VC and MoH did exactly that and we honor them as heroes, not as fools or barbarians, and rightly so. During the early period of the Cold War both USAF and Soviet interceptors had orders to ram enemy bombers if necessary to protect their nations from nuclear attack.

Also, the Japanese did not use the term kamikaze specifically for suicide attacks, and it was never an official term. The Japanese term for units carrying out suicide attacks was tokubetsu kōgeki tai, which means "special attack unit", or just tokkōtai for short. Kamikaze was considerably more used by the west to describe these attacks, so I guess that answers your question; we (the west) did change the meaning of the word both in our own languages and in Japanese culture.
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Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: Isoroku Yamamoto, the Commander-in-Chief of the Combined Fleet
« Reply #56 on: January 08, 2013, 08:14:09 PM »

Also, the Japanese did not use the term kamikaze specifically for suicide attacks, and it was never an official term. The Japanese term for units carrying out suicide attacks was tokubetsu kōgeki tai, which means "special attack unit", or just tokkōtai for short. Kamikaze was considerably more used by the west to describe these attacks, so I guess that answers your question; we (the west) did change the meaning of the word both in our own languages and in Japanese culture.

However, while the IJAAF called them "tokubetsu kōgeki tai", the IJN officially referred to their special attack units as "shinpū tokubetsu kōgeki tai", which meant "divine wind special attack units".  Shinpū is the on'yomi (Kanji) of the same characters that form the word Kamikaze in Japanese.

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Offline GScholz

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Re: Isoroku Yamamoto, the Commander-in-Chief of the Combined Fleet
« Reply #57 on: January 08, 2013, 08:52:15 PM »
That wiki article also states "During World War II, the pronunciation kamikaze was used in Japan only informally in relation to suicide attacks, but after the war this usage gained acceptance worldwide and was re-imported into Japan."

The west changed the meaning of the word "kamikaze" in Japanese culture.
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Offline hyzer

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Re: Isoroku Yamamoto, the Commander-in-Chief of the Combined Fleet
« Reply #58 on: January 09, 2013, 11:08:07 AM »
While a bit off topic this thread reminded me of an incident about 15 years or so ago.  My wife's mom asked her to put on a dinner for some friends of theirs they met while staying at an RV park over the summer.   Naturally I wasn't thrilled but did what I was told and helped out.

The dinner went well and we moved to the living room for coffee.  At the time I was playing WarBirds and had a big coffee table book of WWII aircraft laying out in the open.  The old gent happened to notice the aircraft book and we got to talking.   As it turned out he was stationed at Henderson Field during Operation Vengeance.  His squadron  didn’t get to fly the mission, but he knew all the guys that did.   The most amazing thing to him was that they actually found Yamamoto’s flight after 600 miles of dead reckoning navigation. 

He had some great stories, after a while I mentioned I flew in a PC game named WarBirds that simulated WWII planes.  He was very interested and asked to have a go at flying the planes.  After a few minutes of explanations of how it worked he asked to fly a P39.   After he got airborne and flew around a bit, I mentioned he could shoot the 37mm gun, when he squeezed off a few rounds he got the biggest grin on his face and said that big gun was why he used to love to fly the P39.

Needless to say that was one of the better dinner parties we ever had.  :aok
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Offline GScholz

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Re: Isoroku Yamamoto, the Commander-in-Chief of the Combined Fleet
« Reply #59 on: January 10, 2013, 01:29:28 AM »
Nice story Hyzer. Pretty cool :)
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."