HF Flight Model Arena

[doright]

...P-factor is hard to notice because the propwash torque and gyroscopic precession can mask it but Hitech says it's in there and we have no reason to doubt it.

Thanks that is the type of Hitech info I was really after.

But the question is has an arena been tried without automatic corrections or damping of these effects applied?

Just a few notes.
Not only reading.
Spiral slipstream, gyroscopic precession and P-factor are all turning effects in the same direction so they can't mask one another just augment each other.
You can sum forces about any point you desire, the tip of the spinner, the pilot's belly button, 25% MAC @ BL0, mars, or even the C.G., any force induces a moment about that point equal to the force times the perpendicular distance. Just saying that the forces don't actually act through the CG that is just a sometimes convenient place to sum them about. But since the CG tends to change position it isn't always the best place.

[hitech]

Thanks that is the type of Hitech info I was really after.

But the question is has an arena been tried without automatic corrections or damping of these effects applied?

Just a few notes.
Not only reading.
Spiral slipstream, gyroscopic precession and P-factor are all turning effects in the same direction so they can't mask one another just augment each other.
You can sum forces about any point you desire, the tip of the spinner, the pilot's belly button, 25% MAC @ BL0, mars, or even the C.G., any force induces a moment about that point equal to the force times the perpendicular distance. Just saying that the forces don't actually act through the CG that is just a sometimes convenient place to sum them about. But since the CG tends to change position it isn't always the best place.

There is NOT any auto damping of effects. The only slight issue is combat trim which simply puts in rudder trim based on your speed, if you disable combat trim you should see yourself out of rudder trim based on speed.

HiTech

[MrRiplEy[H]]

Engine management was not nearly as finicky as you think. The guys who flew these things were mostly 18 to 24 year olds who were smart guys, but certainly not super humans.  The Spit V pilot who ran WEP for 30 minutes didn't burn his engine out.  The P-38 pilot whoswho said no WWII fighter had enough power and in combat he just put the engines to full and left them there didn't burn up his engines and Saburo Sakai didn't burn out his Zero's engine running full power in his fight against those fifteen Hellcats.

IIRC it took around 10 seconds to configure a P38 from cruise settings to combat. I recall a P38 pilot mentioning that on history channel when comparing the plane to the 190 series which had much higher automation and didn't require manual adjustments if bounced.

Edit: here it is:

20th Fighter Group Headquarters
APO 637 U.S. Army
(E-2)

3 June 1944

Subject: P-38 Airplane in Combat.

To: Commanding General, VIII Fighter Command, APO 637, U.S. Army.

1. The following observations are being put in writing by the undersigned at the request of the Commanding General, VII FC. They are intended purely as constructive criticism and are intended in any way to "low rate" our present equipment.

2. After flying the P-38 for a little over one hundred hours on combat missions it is my belief that the airplane, as it stands now, is too complicated for the 'average' pilot. I want to put strong emphasis on the word 'average, taking full consideration just how little combat training our pilots have before going on as operational status.

3. As a typical case to demonstrate my point, let us assume that we have a pilot fresh out of flying school with about a total of twenty-five hours in a P-38, starting out on a combat mission. He is on a deep ramrod, penetration and target support to maximum endurance. He is cruising along with his power set at maximum economy. He is pulling 31" Hg and 2100 RPM. He is auto lean and running on external tanks. His gun heater is off to relieve the load on his generator, which frequently gives out (under sustained heavy load). His sight is off to save burning out the bulb. His combat switch may or may not be on. Flying along in this condition, he suddenly gets "bounced", what to do flashes through his mind. He must turn, he must increase power and get rid of those external tanks and get on his main. So, he reaches down and turns two stiff, difficult gas switches {valves} to main - turns on his drop tank switches, presses his release button, puts the mixture to auto rich (two separate and clumsy operations), increases his RPM, increases his manifold pressure, turns on his gun heater switch (which he must feel for and cannot possibly see), turns on his combat switch and he is ready to fight. At this point, he has probably been shot down or he has done one of several things wrong. Most common error is to push the throttles wide open before increasing RPM. This causes detonation and subsequent engine failure. Or, he forgets to switch back to auto rich, and gets excessive cylinder head temperature with subsequent engine failure.

4. In my limited experience with a P-38 group, we have lost as least four (4) pilots, who when bounced, took no immediate evasive action. The logical assumption is that they were so busy in the cockpit, trying to get organized that they were shot down before they could get going.

[Karnak]

IIRC it took around 10 seconds to configure a P38 from cruise settings to combat. I recall a P38 pilot mentioning that on history channel when comparing the plane to the 190 series which had much higher automation and didn't require manual adjustments if bounced.

Yup, and the P-38 was unusually bad about that while the Fw190s with the BMW engine were unusually good about it.  In AH terms that is 10 seconds of button presses in a certain, easily remembered pattern, after which you don't fiddle with the controls.  The guys saying we'd all fry our engines are imagining constantly tweaking the engines throughout the combat.

[doright]

There is NOT any auto damping of effects. The only slight issue is combat trim which simply puts in rudder trim based on your speed, if you disable combat trim you should see yourself out of rudder trim based on speed.

HiTech

Oh no I invoked the name of Mars, the god of war, and he awakes. Its probably not good to anger him with pesky questions from the insignificant mortal flea that I am. But you just know I will.

So all effects are included, no auto dampening... but then what allows me to hold a slow speed at full power attitude with minimal rudder in a F4U-1D or hold a 60deg bank in a P38 (which at 52' is just slightly wider span as a 15m standard class sailplane and all those pesky engine related turning effects cancelling out) and have the ball centered with no rudder.

[colmbo]

IIRC it took around 10 seconds to configure a P38 from cruise settings to combat. I recall a P38 pilot mentioning that on history channel when comparing the plane to the 190 series which had much higher automation and didn't require manual adjustments if bounced.

A lot of that 10 seconds was eaten up doing things other than power management.

Surprised at his comment about the mixture controls, they are just forward of the throttle...would seem to be easy to just push them both forward with one motion.  The prop controls in the B-17 mixture controls in both the -17 and -24 were the same type handles...have many times grabbed all four and made changes.

[fbEagle]

Hmmm.  I find just the opposite, if you don't use rudder in game the airplane will wander.

Which is how it should be.  The rudder counters the drag from the down deflected aileron, once in the bank with ailerons neutral there is no longer a need for rudder.  Bank turns the airplane, not the rudder.
  I've found over the years that many things are a bit exaggerated in aviation.    I expect you would not lose control of the airplane.  You'd have to tap some brake and stay right on top of her but no reason to think you'd go screaming off the side as most people believe. 
 Do you know which way your nose would be pulled?  If the prop turns clockwise from the cockpit it will go left.  Easily countered and is done reflexively.  Hours of flying makes it a habit -- when the throttle goes forward your right foot presses some rudder -- when the stick comes forward to lower the nose you tap in a bit of rudder -- end result the nose never wiggles because as an experienced pilot you anticipate these things a fix 'em before they happen.

I'm a bit surprised you're saying these things aren't present in game.  I'm constantly tweaking trim (I fly a lot using manual trim) when flying.  Are you a pilot in real life?

This is a game, the airplanes do not fly like real airplanes -- we're limited by the equipment we fly on.  I agree that many wouldn't be able to get the airplane from the hangar to the runway if things were made "real enough", but AH does a pretty good job of giving the impression of what it's like flying the airplanes.

Ahh flight school. "right rudder" "I got it" "Right Rudder" "I Got It" "RIGHT RUDDER" "I GOT IT!!"      "that wasnt bad for your first time.." "Thanks!"

[MrRiplEy[H]]

A lot of that 10 seconds was eaten up doing things other than power management.

Surprised at his comment about the mixture controls, they are just forward of the throttle...would seem to be easy to just push them both forward with one motion.  The prop controls in the B-17 mixture controls in both the -17 and -24 were the same type handles...have many times grabbed all four and made changes.

Part of it was non-engine management, true, but the management had to be done in a hurry with all these steps and panicking or forgetting something could lead to engine destruction. Imagine having to repeat a series of adjustments (not just key presses) after being check 6'ed... k/d would suffer suffice to say.

[colmbo]

Part of it was non-engine management, true, but the management had to be done in a hurry with all these steps and panicking or forgetting something could lead to engine destruction. Imagine having to repeat a series of adjustments (not just key presses) after being check 6'ed... k/d would suffer suffice to say.

Yeah, but a lot of that stuff can be done as you're in the break -- like getting rid of the external tanks.  Pushing the throttle up without increasing RPM won't instantly blow an engine -- one time in the B-24 I brought all four props back to low RPM while at climb power  (horrible brain fart, meant to close the cowl flaps, grabbed the wrong set of 4 identical toggle switches) -- other than making some uncomfortable sounds all 4 engines held up and continued to run for the rest of the season.

There is no doubt however that high cockpit workload is bad for your health in a hostile environment -- be it enemy fighters or bad weather approaches.  Those old airplanes were not "ergonomic" in their layout.

[FLS]

Spiral slipstream, gyroscopic precession and P-factor are all turning effects in the same direction so they can't mask one another just augment each other.

You have that backwards. It's because they're in the same direction and combine that you won't be able to notice how much yaw is specifically from P-factor.

[doright]

I took a B29* up stabilized it in level flight then shut off the noisy trouble making engines. Entered a steep bank and sure enough some rudder was needed to keep coordinated flight either direction.

So dampened (in a engineering sense) was a very poor choice of words for flight model modification of yaw effects for play in the arenas.

How about:
Scaled or attenuated forces?

*AHS (Aces High Society) certifies that no virtual B29s were harmed in the making of these tests.

[FLS]

I took a B29* up stabilized it in level flight then shut off the noisy trouble making engines. Entered a steep bank and sure enough some rudder was needed to keep coordinated flight either direction.

So dampened (in a engineering sense) was a very poor choice of words for flight model modification of yaw effects for play in the arenas.

How about:
Scaled or attenuated forces?

*AHS (Aces High Society) certifies that no virtual B29s were harmed in the making of these tests.

Which force do you believe is scaled or attenuated, despite Hitech (who wrote the code) explaining that nothing is, and what would make it correct  in your opinion?

[The Fugitive]

Which force do you believe is scaled or attenuated, despite Hitech (who wrote the code) explaining that nothing is, and what would make it correct  in your opinion?

If the planes flew like gliders then he'd be happy. 

[doright]

Which force do you believe is scaled or attenuated, despite Hitech (who wrote the code) explaining that nothing is, and what would make it correct  in your opinion?

What Hitech said is:

There is NOT any auto damping of effects

I have no reason to doubt him and dropped that line of inquiry. However, no auto damping (or auto correction) does not remove the possibility of scaling or attenuation of the yaw forces.

I'm willing to learn and test. I've double check that yes auto takeoff is not checked (hard to miss) and combat trim is off. I've blasted off using Wep in a F4U-D1 requiring modest right rudder input. I've noticed that yes some rudder correction is required when the the tail lifts and then again when it settled into a two point stance. I've also set the .target at 30deg altitude and used it as a solid reference for a slow speed full power climb attitude that requires surprisingly little rudder input (17% of half range with trim zeroed, no axis scaling) to hold considering the large 13' diameter propeller. I've also tried the RV8 and it took a bit more rudder to hold it in a similar attitude. I've also tried the B29 test I noted above.

I'm not debating whether this is appropriate for the regular arenas. What I am asking is if since twisty sticks have become common and numerous experienced AH pilots have rudder controls if an arena has been tried that gives those pilots the option to challenge both the flying skills along with their ACM.

[doright]

If the planes flew like gliders then he'd be happy. 

Well there is the Me163 which makes me VERY happy.