HF Flight Model Arena

[ink]

I am not a pilot...I just play one in a online combat game.............


I do have a flight in a Super Decathlon....first time ever being in a real plane.....besides the body effects...it was very similar to AH....except the rudder peddles were much stiffer..

my question is what is the difference between "coordinated" turn and uncoordinated....by some of the replies I am guessing....keeping the ball centered while turning would be a "coordinated" turn and obviously if the ball has moved out of center it would be an uncoordinated turn?

I never pay attention to the ball ingame.

[Vinkman]

I'm type-rated (pilot in command) in the B-24 with a little over 300 hours in it, I flew co-pilot in the B-17 (a little over 300 hours).  I've got 1 hour in a Mustang and about 3 hours in the T-6.

Trust me, in a fight with the airplane it'll be done as I noted with throttle being the only adjustment during the fight.  Nothing to gain by messing with mixture and RPM.

Setting up for cruise it's just as easy -- throttle (manifold pressure) and RPM are adjusted to the appropriate cruise setting (something that is in the aircraft manual - not something you need to "tweak" and the mixture is set to "Auto Lean".  The pressure carbs used on the aircraft were pretty good at adjusting for altitude, certainly much better than light aircraft with simple induction systems where you have to manually lean using EGT or your ear.

Aviation was still pretty new during WWII, there was a lot they didn't know then that we know now. (The books for the B-17 and B-24 do not address minimum safe engine out speeds.  The B-24 book has the statement "This shouldn't happen to a dog" when talking about losing two engines on takeoff.)   The operating books for the aircraft left a lot of info out compared to what a modern POH has in it so there would be times (such as Lindberg helping the guys extend range in the Pacific) where some adjustments would be made to improve performance.


There is no spark advance adjustment on any aircraft I know of -- have never heard of it except on I think some WWI aircraft or other aircraft from the very early years of aviation.

Thanks for the info! 

[muzik]

I am not a pilot...I just play one in a online combat game.............


I do have a flight in a Super Decathlon....first time ever being in a real plane.....besides the body effects...it was very similar to AH....except the rudder peddles were much stiffer..

my question is what is the difference between "coordinated" turn and uncoordinated....by some of the replies I am guessing....keeping the ball centered while turning would be a "coordinated" turn and obviously if the ball has moved out of center it would be an uncoordinated turn?

I never pay attention to the ball ingame.

You've got it right. An uncoordinated turn would be like driving a car at high speed around a flat corner. Your body feels pulled to the outside of the turn and you would have to hold yourself upright. A coordinated turn might feel like driving your car through a Nascar track with what might be called a "super" or banked corner. The car goes into a steep bank as you turn so the forces feel like your being pulled down in your seat. I don't think Nascar tracks are perfectly coordinated, but that's the idea.

In an aircraft, if you kicked your rudder but held the plane level with your ailerons, you would be making the same flat turn. An uncoordinated turn and the ball would do the same as your body and get pulled to the side.

If you bank the aircraft at the precise angle for the speed turn rate you are making, you will be in coordinated turn and your body will only feel like it is being pulled into the seat or like you are getting heavier.

[Karnak]

You've got it right. An uncoordinated turn would be like driving a car at high speed around a flat corner. Your body feels pulled to the outside of the turn and you would have to hold yourself upright. A coordinated turn might feel like driving your car through a Nascar track with what might be called a "super" or banked corner. The car goes into a steep bank as you turn so the forces feel like your being pulled down in your seat. I don't think Nascar tracks are perfectly coordinated, but that's the idea.

In an aircraft, if you kicked your rudder but held the plane level with your ailerons, you would be making the same flat turn. An uncoordinated turn and the ball would do the same as your body and get pulled to the side.

If you bank the aircraft at the precise angle for the speed turn rate you are making, you will be in coordinated turn and your body will only feel like it is being pulled into the seat or like you are getting heavier.

All of which makes it significantly easier to do a coordinated turn in a real aircraft as compared to sitting in a chair in front of a PC.  That is the major reason that most of us don't do coordinated turns.  I have tried, but it is very hard and I have to focus entirely on the bubble and not at all on what is happening around me.

[doright]

All of which makes it significantly easier to do a coordinated turn in a real aircraft as compared to sitting in a chair in front of a PC.

I would have to disagree that it is significantly easier in a real aircraft. It is just significantly easier sitting in a chair in front of a PC to get away with not doing a coordinated turn. You haven't had an instructor looking over your shoulder drilling it into you, and there isn't the pride in doing it yourself when they aren't around.

[Vinkman]

I would have to disagree that it is significantly easier in a real aircraft. It is just significantly easier sitting in a chair in front of a PC to get away with not doing a coordinated turn. You haven't had an instructor looking over your shoulder drilling it into you, and there isn't the pride in doing it yourself when they aren't around.

I do it sitting in my chair in front of my PC all the time. It's easier than cleaning up the floor when my coffee mug slides off my desk.  

[Ack-Ack]

All of which makes it significantly easier to do a coordinated turn in a real aircraft as compared to sitting in a chair in front of a PC.  That is the major reason that most of us don't do coordinated turns.  I have tried, but it is very hard and I have to focus entirely on the bubble and not at all on what is happening around me.

There are visual cues you can use, which is what I do and after awhile you get a "feel" for it.  YMMV.

ack-ack

[Karnak]

I would have to disagree that it is significantly easier in a real aircraft. It is just significantly easier sitting in a chair in front of a PC to get away with not doing a coordinated turn. You haven't had an instructor looking over your shoulder drilling it into you, and there isn't the pride in doing it yourself when they aren't around.

We'll have to agree to disagree.  Not having any feedback other than the bubble under the gunsight makes it impossible to do intuitively and that is simply how I see it.

[Ardy123]

simple, look at the turn & bank indicator when you turn. in RL you can feel it, in AH-land, you have to use your instruments. Also, if you stick to one ride after a while you develop muscle memory and you just intuitively give the right amount of rudder.

[doright]

We'll have to agree to disagree.  Not having any feedback other than the bubble under the gunsight makes it impossible to do intuitively and that is simply how I see it.

That little ball is VERY sensitive. More sensitive then your body is to small uncoordinated conditions. You come in holding a slip to land you definitely feel that, and its uncomfortable. But the edge of the ball just kissing the line you really aren't going to feel. But to minimize drag, maximize performance, keep the instructor pleased, and take pride in your flying you learn not to accept that small deviation. Like holding an altitude, airspeed, heading, maintaining an attitude... all take a lot of focus when you are first learning but eventually become second nature.

But since you wish to agree to disagree. Take your excuses were you can find them.

[earl1937]

Along the lines of this thread, I'm curious as to how many folks try to do coordinated turns most or all of the time.  Real pilots and non-pilots alike.

  Uncoordinated turns, either slipping in the turn or skidding in the turn will "degrade" your airspeed much quicker than if you are coordinated though out the turn. That gives your opponent a "edge" on speed, so there fore you will find yourself at a disadvantage in ACM's! To develope your coordination in flying stick and rudder aircraft, go into the training arena or a rear base away from the front lines, level at some altitude, say, 5,000 feet, then roll your aircraft from straight and level to 45 degrees bank to the left, then immediately roll back to the right to a 45 degree bank. Doing this will develope your coordinated flight at a much quicker pace, than just flying around in the game and wondering if you are doing things correctly. While I know this is just a "game", if you want to fly your aircraft correctly, it takes a little bit of training!

[Ardy123]

coordinated turn = preserve e
cross stick turn = blow e

both are useful, depending on what the situation calls

[ink]

You've got it right. An uncoordinated turn would be like driving a car at high speed around a flat corner. Your body feels pulled to the outside of the turn and you would have to hold yourself upright. A coordinated turn might feel like driving your car through a Nascar track with what might be called a "super" or banked corner. The car goes into a steep bank as you turn so the forces feel like your being pulled down in your seat. I don't think Nascar tracks are perfectly coordinated, but that's the idea.

In an aircraft, if you kicked your rudder but held the plane level with your ailerons, you would be making the same flat turn. An uncoordinated turn and the ball would do the same as your body and get pulled to the side.

If you bank the aircraft at the precise angle for the speed turn rate you are making, you will be in coordinated turn and your body will only feel like it is being pulled into the seat or like you are getting heavier.

cc that...great description thanx

[Karnak]

That little ball is VERY sensitive. More sensitive then your body is to small uncoordinated conditions.

Yes, but you have to be looking at it whereas you can look elsewhere and still feel an uncoordinated turn.

[muzik]

That little ball is VERY sensitive. More sensitive then your body is to small uncoordinated conditions. You come in holding a slip to land you definitely feel that, and its uncomfortable. But the edge of the ball just kissing the line you really aren't going to feel. But to minimize drag, maximize performance, keep the instructor pleased, and take pride in your flying you learn not to accept that small deviation. Like holding an altitude, airspeed, heading, maintaining an attitude... all take a lot of focus when you are first learning but eventually become second nature.

Very true.

Uncoordinated turns, either slipping in the turn or skidding in the turn will "degrade" your airspeed much quicker than if you are coordinated though out the turn. That gives your opponent a "edge" on speed, so there fore you will find yourself at a disadvantage in ACM's!

Not in every situation, it is often used in game to gain an angles advantage. The speed you lose is less important.

To develope your coordination in flying stick and rudder aircraft, go into the training arena or a rear base away from the front lines, level at some altitude, say, 5,000 feet, then roll your aircraft from straight and level to 45 degrees bank to the left, then immediately roll back to the right to a 45 degree bank. Doing this will develope your coordinated flight at a much quicker pace, than just flying around in the game and wondering if you are doing things correctly. While I know this is just a "game", if you want to fly your aircraft correctly, it takes a little bit of training!

I doubt anyone can develop much instinct in flying coordinated in a game where you can't feel the motion. I am sure some can develop an approximation, but it can only be developed visually. That means flying around in an empty arena is only going to teach you to fly coordinated in that environment. When you go into a dogfight, probably more so in turning 1v1s, your visual cues are completely different than what you used to practice in an empty arena. The only way anyone will get good at combat flying in this game is by doing it.