Sniper, or Sledgehammer? What range do you tend to shoot at?

[Scotch]

I regularly spray taters at fleeing targets 1k out. It's hilarious when one does hit! 

[Ninthmessiah]

I fly the p47 almost exclusively so...

Do you prefer Cannons or 50 cals? I prefer cannons, but sadly the p47 doesnt allow them.
What ranges do you set your convergence? 250, 275, 300
Do you set all of your guns to converge in a spread or at a point? A tight spread.  Inner bank at 250, banks 2 & 3 at 275, outer bank at 300.
Do you actually find yourself firing from that range? I'll shoot at any range within 1000yrds that I think I can score a hit.  It's a p47; I got the bullets to spare.  But only within 300yrds do I consistently do catastrophic damage.  Only that close will the 8 .50s do the magical OMGATEFIFTYS damage.
Would you consider yourself an accurate burst shooter or a spray till they explode shooter? I'm a spray-in-bursts shooter.

[mtnman]

I fly the F4U almost exclusively.

Do you prefer Cannons or 50 cals? 50 Cals

What ranges do you set your convergence? 275 always

Do you set all of your guns to converge in a spread or at a point? Point

Do you actually find yourself firing from that range? I'm patient, and almost always wait until D200 to open up on fighters.  An exception would be that I'll fire out at D400 on fighters if I'm trying to make them react.  I consider firing at D400 to be a waste of ammo though, so I don't make a regular practice of it.  Bombers I open up in the D400 range, a little before I think the icon will change to D200.

Would you consider yourself an accurate burst shooter or a spray till they explode shooter? I consider myself to be one of the most accurate burst shooters in the game.  I fire short bursts, wait to see the effect, and repeat if necessary.  I only spray long streams if I'm assured of prolonged hits.

[caldera]

What ranges do you set your convergence? 200-400 - plane dependent

Do you actually find yourself firing from that range?  I usually miss until nearly colliding, followed by a few hits and an actual collision.

Would you consider yourself an accurate burst shooter or a spray till they explode shooter?  Terrible in accuracy but awesome in total rounds expended.

[Sunka]

Mostly i fly b pony, 4 50 cal's so shooting close is a must I'm set at 225.
Very little ammo so burst (snapshots) are a must and all on one point also a must.
I have been flying many birds lately and i use all the same rules for everything, exept bomber hunters that i set at 350.

[cobia38]

Do you prefer Cannons or 50 cals? .50s
What ranges do you set your convergence?   650 on the A-20/B38  and 400 on FM2
Do you set all of your guns to converge in a spread or at a point?  doesent matter on nose mount A-20/B38 its a sawzall on anything under 1k
Do you actually find yourself firing from that range?  I fire at any range under 1k if i think i can get hits
Would you consider yourself an accurate burst shooter or a spray till they explode shooter?  Burst

[Randy1]

Most people like to shoot me down at 400 or less except

I regularly spray taters at fleeing targets 1k out. It's hilarious when one does hit! 

I knew I heard someone laughing.

Most prefer canon and the neat explosion my plane makes.

[palef]

I set my convergence randomly and am extremely unhappy if i don't expend all my ammo on not killing one con.

[bustr]

Go offline and use the target flying auto level at 300mph. From 100, 200, 300, 400 understand the relationship between the center of your gunsight and your patterning on the target at range. Remember the rings on the target are 10 feet wide to understand dispersion at range. Look at how convergence effects dispersion in relation to your gunsight center.

Then with whatever convergence attack the offline drones from the angles and atitiudes that are giving you your problems in the MA which caused you to open this post. It's boring but, amasing how bad most players ability to estimate relative speeds to shoot lead for is. It was a very common problem for fighter pilots in WW2 and why the K14 active gyroscopic gunsight was invented. Books like "Bag the Hun" and "Schiessfibel" with their large cartoon picture format didn't solve the problem as was hoped. I bet convergence is not your real problem but, part of the process to solving it.

Spend a month in the DA with the DA monsters every single night which will make convergence a none issue.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alert!!: Windbaggery -- WW2 Tech --  Lots of Numbers 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Unless you really want to know the ballistics of our rounds in game.

Lets use the modeling of the Rheinmetall-Borsig MK 108 30mm cannon in our game as an example. Since I've spent the most years researching it. I have the Rechlin Mk103\Mk108 testing data results sheet that includes ballistics data for the Mk108 and Mk103 shells shooting they same Minengeschoss round at two different velocities. This is not the Bordwaffenmunition pdf. It's a compairison of the Mk103\Mk108 rounds and their parameters along with testing data as fired by the Mk103\Mk108. I suspect HTC has a copy of this document since I included a link to it a few years back.

I have the AAF data sheets for the 50cal-75mm somewhere if you want a real snooze some other time.

The Mk108 in the K4 and Ta152 in game shoots it's apparent flatest to -4ft @400yd related to the center of your gunsight for the intial velocity of 500m\sec when you set it to 350c. Setting it any longer say 650c will have you missing by shooting as high as 7 feet at 350yds. While at 350c from 150yd to 300yd the round averages a relative flat trajectory with the center of your gunsight. At 350c inside of 150yd you will shoot low under your con.

If you want to shoot the Mk108 in the K4 and Ta152 the closest to their historical zero line engine mounting, then choose 150c. Your 400 yard drop will be 6 feet with a max dispersion of about 8 feet. The historical drop at 400m was 3.68m(12ft) with a max dispersion of 9.4(30ft). 400m=437yd. Hitech is being nice to you K4 addicts by letting you uptilt the barrel and tameing the dispersion so you can set sweet spots @distance. One of the reasons many  players seem to not be able to hit from a tail chase but, instead from a crossing shot is the dispersion of the Mk108.

The round as fired from the real Mk108 has a slight pull to the right due to spin drift that I'm not sure is modeled in our game. The Rechlin data sheet includes a right hand spin drift table for the Mk108. It shows (49.771 120dg5'40") right spin drift at 400m. Without indicating if 49.771 is in meters or in centimeters. If it's centimeters than the horrible dispersion of that round makes it moot to model in our game. Whats 19.5 or so inches inside of 8 or so feet in the game? How with a 30ft dispersion at 400m would they have been able to determine the Mk108 needed a spin drift table for the pilots shooting the thing? Sighting lazers and a laptop? Or a pronounced shift in patterning towards the right side of the trajectory getting worse by 400m? Rechlin had long testing ranges and used tall towers to shoot from a leveled bore line.

I still remember guncam footage from a 190 firing Mk108 at a bomber and watching one of the 30mm tracers curve way out to the right and hit the outer wing panel near the wing tip while the pilot was aiming in near the fuslage. So, 49.771 Rspin Drift at 400m and the range for the 190 was 300m or closer shooting. The spin drift numbers at 100m\200m\300m are 9.406, 21.360, and 35.077 from the Rechlin testing spin drift table.

B17 half wingspan is 15.81m
B24 half wingspan is 16.75m

Rechlin didn't think it necessary to have a spin drift table for the Mk103 at 880m\sec in the same Rechlin test document with a dispersion of 3.1m(10ft) @400m versus the Mk108's 9.4m(30ft) @400m. Maybe it has to do with a 23inch 3cm  1:16 twist barrel firing a round at 500m\sec versus a 52.76inch 3cm 1:16 twist barrel firing a round at 880m\sec. The high twist rate was to unlock the safety on the fuse after it got out in front of the fighter.

The spin drift table only goes to 585m and the unit was 68.376 @585m.

594m=650yd, 585m=639yd, 68m=223ft, 68cm=2.2ft.

I remember reading about a 109 squaderon CO who would change out of his K4 to a G10 for the 20mm if he thought he would be mixing it up with fighters.

The AAF considered 2000ft(666yd) the max realistic effective distance for AtoA 50cal. 400m was considered the max effective range you could hit anything with the Mk108 intentionaly as big as a B17 even ganged in close pairs or quads like in the 110 or 262. The max range was 590m. The effective range harmonization of the pair in the nose of the 110 to the Revi sight line was 400m. The two pairs in the 262 one was set 400m the other 500m. Unlike with our ganged pairs of nose mounted guns in the game in the P38\A20\B25\B26\110\Mossi\262. If you read all of the manuals they were all set parallel to each other but, they were adjusted to trajectory drop pattern at a specific distance relative to the line of sight of the gunsight. Dispersion caused crossing at distance and the patterning cloud.

As a rule the german WW2 manuals and test results documents are in meters. Centemeters and millimeters specificly noted when used from meters. Centemeters nor millimeters was noted in the spin drift table.

So I wonder what 49.771 Rspin drift at 400m means in a document that shows the drop at 400m for the same round is 3.68m and dispersion 9.4m? It's not worth the trouble to calculate a spin drift table if at 400m the Rspin drift is only 2 feet inside of a 9.4m(30ft) dispersion area. Lazer sighting technology and laptops in ww2? The german pilot shooting the Mk108 knew he was not shooting a lazer like the Mk103 at the bombers. All of the higher velocity german rounds 720-900m\sec 3.7cm and smaller have roughly a 4Mil average dispersion cone to max effective range. 4Mil@437yds(400m) aproximently 8 feet, close to the Mk103 high velocity rounds dispersion of 10ft. Gotta wonder how 400m was determined as the maximum effective distance to hit bombers at and a reoccuring constant in german manuals for gunsight harmonizing? Rechlin testing results maybe?

I should compaire the NS-37 37mm 900m\sec HE round at 425yards from the Yak9T against the Mk103 and Mk108 dispersion cones. Based on the spin drift table from the Rechlin document, I should be seeing patterning tending to strongly drift to the right on the offline target at 425yds while auto leveled. Since the Mk108 in our K4 and Ta152 engines is locked horizontaly in line with the hollow airscrew shaft unless they are secretly adjusted to angle a bit to the left as you choose your convergence. The Mk103 should make a double 10ft blob pattern with scattered "out fliers" and the NS-37 about a 10ft blob pattern with scattered "out fliers" dead on if my Aim Point is set to the center vertical line of the target for each test at 425yds while on auto level.

Moral to all of this "windbaggery":

1. Don't do research on WW2 technology. You will only start fights and be unhappy.

2. Live in the DA with the DA monsters for awhile. Convergence will stop being a problem and you will get a reputation in the MA for being a hot stick and a dead eyed killer of red guys. Unless you are attempting to find a sweet spot convergence for picking players at distance. Then dive at the offline drones untill you dream it in your sleep. Convergence is not that much of a factore versus hitting what you aim at after you spend the time to build the experienced eye and muscel memory.

[BaldEagl]

Do you prefer Cannons or 50 cals? Cannons
What ranges do you set your convergence? 450 or 650 depending on the gun combination
Do you set all of your guns to converge in a spread or at a point? Point
Do you actually find yourself firing from that range? 50-1000 yards
Would you consider yourself an accurate burst shooter or a spray till they explode shooter? Burst

[Ripley]

Go offline and use the target flying auto level at 300mph. From 100, 200, 300, 400 understand the relationship between the center of your gunsight and your patterning on the target at range. Remember the rings on the target are 10 feet wide to understand dispersion at range. Look at how convergence effects dispersion in relation to your gunsight center.

Then with whatever convergence attack the offline drones from the angles and atitiudes that are giving you your problems in the MA which caused you to open this post. It's boring but, amasing how bad most players ability to estimate relative speeds to shoot lead for is. It was a very common problem for fighter pilots in WW2 and why the K14 active gyroscopic gunsight was invented. Books like "Bag the Hun" and "Schiessfibel" with their large cartoon picture format didn't solve the problem as was hoped. I bet convergence is not your real problem but, part of the process to solving it.

Spend a month in the DA with the DA monsters every single night which will make convergence a none issue.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alert!!: Windbaggery -- WW2 Tech --  Lots of Numbers 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Unless you really want to know the ballistics of our rounds in game.

Lets use the modeling of the Rheinmetall-Borsig MK 108 30mm cannon in our game as an example. Since I've spent the most years researching it. I have the Rechlin Mk103\Mk108 testing data results sheet that includes ballistics data for the Mk108 and Mk103 shells shooting they same Minengeschoss round at two different velocities. This is not the Bordwaffenmunition pdf. It's a compairison of the Mk103\Mk108 rounds and their parameters along with testing data as fired by the Mk103\Mk108. I suspect HTC has a copy of this document since I included a link to it a few years back.

I have the AAF data sheets for the 50cal-75mm somewhere if you want a real snooze some other time.

The Mk108 in the K4 and Ta152 in game shoots it's apparent flatest to -4ft @400yd related to the center of your gunsight for the intial velocity of 500m\sec when you set it to 350c. Setting it any longer say 650c will have you missing by shooting as high as 7 feet at 350yds. While at 350c from 150yd to 300yd the round averages a relative flat trajectory with the center of your gunsight. At 350c inside of 150yd you will shoot low under your con.

If you want to shoot the Mk108 in the K4 and Ta152 the closest to their historical zero line engine mounting, then choose 150c. Your 400 yard drop will be 6 feet with a max dispersion of about 8 feet. The historical drop at 400m was 3.68m(12ft) with a max dispersion of 9.4(30ft). 400m=437yd. Hitech is being nice to you K4 addicts by letting you uptilt the barrel and tameing the dispersion so you can set sweet spots @distance. One of the reasons many  players seem to not be able to hit from a tail chase but, instead from a crossing shot is the dispersion of the Mk108.

The round as fired from the real Mk108 has a slight pull to the right due to spin drift that I'm not sure is modeled in our game. The Rechlin data sheet includes a right hand spin drift table for the Mk108. It shows (49.771 120dg5'40") right spin drift at 400m. Without indicating if 49.771 is in meters or in centimeters. If it's centimeters than the horrible dispersion of that round makes it moot to model in our game. Whats 19.5 or so inches inside of 8 or so feet in the game? How with a 30ft dispersion at 400m would they have been able to determine the Mk108 needed a spin drift table for the pilots shooting the thing? Sighting lazers and a laptop? Or a pronounced shift in patterning towards the right side of the trajectory getting worse by 400m? Rechlin had long testing ranges and used tall towers to shoot from a leveled bore line.

I still remember guncam footage from a 190 firing Mk108 at a bomber and watching one of the 30mm tracers curve way out to the right and hit the outer wing panel near the wing tip while the pilot was aiming in near the fuslage. So, 49.771 Rspin Drift at 400m and the range for the 190 was 300m or closer shooting. The spin drift numbers at 100m\200m\300m are 9.406, 21.360, and 35.077 from the Rechlin testing spin drift table.

B17 half wingspan is 15.81m
B24 half wingspan is 16.75m

Rechlin didn't think it necessary to have a spin drift table for the Mk103 at 880m\sec in the same Rechlin test document with a dispersion of 3.1m(10ft) @400m versus the Mk108's 9.4m(30ft) @400m. Maybe it has to do with a 23inch 3cm  1:16 twist barrel firing a round at 500m\sec versus a 52.76inch 3cm 1:16 twist barrel firing a round at 880m\sec. The high twist rate was to unlock the safety on the fuse after it got out in front of the fighter.

The spin drift table only goes to 585m and the unit was 68.376 @585m.

594m=650yd, 585m=639yd, 68m=223ft, 68cm=2.2ft.

I remember reading about a 109 squaderon CO who would change out of his K4 to a G10 for the 20mm if he thought he would be mixing it up with fighters.

The AAF considered 2000ft(666yd) the max realistic effective distance for AtoA 50cal. 400m was considered the max effective range you could hit anything with the Mk108 intentionaly as big as a B17 even ganged in close pairs or quads like in the 110 or 262. The max range was 590m. The effective range harmonization of the pair in the nose of the 110 to the Revi sight line was 400m. The two pairs in the 262 one was set 400m the other 500m. Unlike with our ganged pairs of nose mounted guns in the game in the P38\A20\B25\B26\110\Mossi\262. If you read all of the manuals they were all set parallel to each other but, they were adjusted to trajectory drop pattern at a specific distance relative to the line of sight of the gunsight. Dispersion caused crossing at distance and the patterning cloud.

As a rule the german WW2 manuals and test results documents are in meters. Centemeters and millimeters specificly noted when used from meters. Centemeters nor millimeters was noted in the spin drift table.

So I wonder what 49.771 Rspin drift at 400m means in a document that shows the drop at 400m for the same round is 3.68m and dispersion 9.4m? It's not worth the trouble to calculate a spin drift table if at 400m the Rspin drift is only 2 feet inside of a 9.4m(30ft) dispersion area. Lazer sighting technology and laptops in ww2? The german pilot shooting the Mk108 knew he was not shooting a lazer like the Mk103 at the bombers. All of the higher velocity german rounds 720-900m\sec 3.7cm and smaller have roughly a 4Mil average dispersion cone to max effective range. 4Mil@437yds(400m) aproximently 8 feet, close to the Mk103 high velocity rounds dispersion of 10ft. Gotta wonder how 400m was determined as the maximum effective distance to hit bombers at and a reoccuring constant in german manuals for gunsight harmonizing? Rechlin testing results maybe?

I should compaire the NS-37 37mm 900m\sec HE round at 425yards from the Yak9T against the Mk103 and Mk108 dispersion cones. Based on the spin drift table from the Rechlin document, I should be seeing patterning tending to strongly drift to the right on the offline target at 425yds while auto leveled. Since the Mk108 in our K4 and Ta152 engines is locked horizontaly in line with the hollow airscrew shaft unless they are secretly adjusted to angle a bit to the left as you choose your convergence. The Mk103 should make a double 10ft blob pattern with scattered "out fliers" and the NS-37 about a 10ft blob pattern with scattered "out fliers" dead on if my Aim Point is set to the center vertical line of the target for each test at 425yds while on auto level.

Moral to all of this "windbaggery":

1. Don't do research on WW2 technology. You will only start fights and be unhappy.

2. Live in the DA with the DA monsters for awhile. Convergence will stop being a problem and you will get a reputation in the MA for being a hot stick and a dead eyed killer of red guys. Unless you are attempting to find a sweet spot convergence for picking players at distance. Then dive at the offline drones untill you dream it in your sleep. Convergence is not that much of a factore versus hitting what you aim at after you spend the time to build the experienced eye and muscel memory.

I don't want to sound like im not appreciative of the info you just added, but I didn't open this post looking for help on convergence/deflection shooting. I've gotten pretty decent at judging distance and deflection (except for this week's dry spell), I just opened the thread to have more interesting stuff to read and to see what various pilots and big names do for their gunnery. Thank you for all of your info though, I won't let it go to waste 

[Latrobe]

I prefer nose mounted guns since they are easier to aim, but wing mounted guns are nice too.

Wing mounted guns I have set to 350 and shoot in the 200-400 range.
Nose mounted guns I have set to 450 and shoot from point blank out to 600.

The exceptions are the K4 and 262 since I can't aim taters  .
I have the K4 currently at 200 for MGs and 150 for the cannon, and I only shoot when I'm at risk of running into my target.
262 I think I have them staggered at 300 and 350. I just spray 30mm all over the place and hope one hits. 

[bustr]

I don't want to sound like im not appreciative of the info you just added, but I didn't open this post looking for help on convergence/deflection shooting. I've gotten pretty decent at judging distance and deflection (except for this week's dry spell), I just opened the thread to have more interesting stuff to read and to see what various pilots and big names do for their gunnery. Thank you for all of your info though, I won't let it go to waste 

You answerd my suspicion about why you opened this post concerning convergence.

The rest was fortuitous to talk about a Rechlin test results document and something not modeled in the game with our Mk108 that the document clearly shows is almost impossible for what we use that specific armament most of the time for. Fighter to fighter combat.

HTC has finaly introduced a Mk103 and the Rechlin document is the results of specific testing of the Mk103 and the Mk108 ballistics becasue they use the same Minengeschos round shot from different volume capacity shell casings from different barrel length guns with the same twist rate. This testing resulted in a "spin drift table" for only the Mk108 which indicates that round can't be used much more than for short range lobbing at B17 sized slowly lumbering level flying objects as is mentioned from numerous sources regarding the Mk108 and it's abilities. Me262 were successfull in fighter to fighter due to ganging together 4 to effect a shotgun pattern when they fired at short range due to the extream dispersion radial overlaps. The danger cost to get close enough to accuratly lob a tiny slow round with the explosive power of a stick grenade's TNT charge (85grams of HA41 hexogen aluminium) was worth the risk in that so few were needed to destroy a bomber.

I could link the document again but, I suspect HTC already has a copy from the last time I linked it.

Do you think when I retest the Mk108 against the Mk103 and NS-37 I will see any right hand spin drift in the dispersion pattern of the Mk108 at 425 yards?

[Brakechk]

I fly the Ki-84 and K4 mostly.....

Do you prefer Cannons or 50 cals?  Combo of both
 
What ranges do you set your convergence?  All guns are set at 300 (every plane not just the above two)
 
Do you set all of your guns to converge in a spread or at a point?  Point, I take a lot of snapshots.
 
Do you actually find yourself firing from that range?  I fire at 400 in the Ki...at the point that 200 goes to 400 or 400 goes to 200 (300 yrd) or closer...200 in the K4.  I also fire all guns vs just mg or cannon 90% of the time (snapshots).  Because of this (and crappy shooting ability) I have to keep my ranges kinda close.  The only difference is when I'm trying to make a plane turn back and usually just the mg's in the K4 at 400+ or in the Ki at long 400+ ranges.

My convergence settings are dictated by the ranges I shoot at rather than the other way around (choosing range to shoot based on convergence).  For that reason I'm always at convergence range when shooting with the exception of the longer shots at planes I'm trying make turn...and this isn't common since it typically doesn't work very well.
 
Would you consider yourself an accurate burst shooter or a spray till they explode shooter?   I used to be a fairly accurate point shooter before I quit.  I'm still a point shooter but miss more frequently than I remember doing before now that I've come back.  Flying planes with wildly varying ballistics on the cannon side doesn't help that but I get frustrated at my lack of ability in the K4 and jump in a Ki.  I'm trying to build the accuracy.  Shooting very short bursts seemed to help me with that before so I'm doing it again.  I also tend to aim at parts of the plane...wings or centerline front (engine/cockpit) depending on profile I'm seeing and if I'm saddled vs taking a fast crossing snapshot.  For me point shooting requires paying close attention to sights and sight picture which pays off later once you learn it and stop chasing tracers. 

One question that wasn't asked that might be interesting:  Do you use tracers?  I use them just to see where to adjust on my next shot.  I've tried turning them off in the past though not lately.  The problem with them off is that I can't see where to adjust for the next shot.  The idea of not using them to keep the enemy from seeing them doesn't benefit me since I'm pretty close when I shoot.  They can hear my engine and guns anyway.

I aint no "hot" pilot (working on it  ) so keep that in mind when reading the above.

Bustr...."Windbaggery" is hilarious    

[--)SF----]

When close enough to smell their fear, than press the trigger.