Author Topic: ship killing, the way it really was  (Read 1194 times)

Offline matt72078

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 37
ship killing, the way it really was
« on: January 14, 2013, 02:00:04 PM »
From what i've read about the battles of Midway, Coral Sea, Marianas, Leyte Gulf.  It seems that dive bombers and torpedo planes were killing the CV's.  Not BUFFs from high altitude.  Every time BUFFs tried to bomb ships they missed.  So why don't we make the BUFFs really easy to kill with puffy ack, and the TBD's, SBD's, VAL's and BN5's harder to kill with the 5 inchers.  It would be nice to be able to take off with torpedos and feal like i had a chance at hitting something and surviving.
"Best in the wing, hat in the ring!"

Offline tunnelrat

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1739
Re: ship killing, the way it really was
« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2013, 03:17:44 PM »
I am allllll in favor of this...

Big torpedo run fan, but as it stands, the vast majority of CVs are killed by high alt buffs and lack of turning the CV.  MAYBE finished off with a Jug or 51/38 Divebomb.

In-Game: 80hd
The Spartans do not enquire how many the enemy are but where they are.

Offline TJsweet

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 126
Re: ship killing, the way it really was
« Reply #2 on: January 14, 2013, 03:44:23 PM »
+1 Might as well take fish out of the game as they a basically useless.
WashOut
FSO--JG54

Offline bangsbox

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1017
Re: ship killing, the way it really was
« Reply #3 on: January 14, 2013, 04:05:11 PM »
i use torps all they time. i only attack ships with torps. there are a few tricks to the trade to be more successful.  1st look at the training diagram! 2nd attack from the side gunners are most likely NOT looking. if that is not working try to hit ship in the bow (head on). U can release torp from much further away if ship is steaming right at it. 

Offline Chalenge

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15179
Re: ship killing, the way it really was
« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2013, 05:11:48 PM »
Bombers missed from altitude because they were level and the ships were turning. Bombers are already really easy to kill with puffy ack, just hit them and you will see.

Messing with the puffy ack because you dont understand the game isnt going to happen.
If you like the Sick Puppy Custom Sound Pack the please consider contributing for future updates by sending a months dues to Hitech Creations for account "Chalenge." Every little bit helps.

Offline shiv

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1054
Re: ship killing, the way it really was
« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2013, 06:00:08 PM »
Bombers missed from altitude because they were level and the ships were turning. Bombers are already really easy to kill with puffy ack, just hit them and you will see.

Messing with the puffy ack because you dont understand the game isnt going to happen.

Maybe the OP means auto-puffy? The auto-puffy doesn't do much to heavy bombers as it is; they're basically invulnerable to it.

Within the context of WW2 heavy bombers weren't accurate enough to take out a CV. In the game, with no weather and the super-accurate bombsite it's so easy even I can (occasionally) manage it.

I imagine you could change the coding so that the auto-puffy has a multiplier effect on formations. So that any buffs within x range of CV would effectively be destroyed or partially destroyed. And that could work to eliminate heavy bomber attacks on CVs. (Not sure how fair that would be to the bomber guys though.)

Even so I don't see that encouraging anything other jabo attacks from fighters. SBD's take too long a time to get to alt, and it takes a whole lot of them anyway to bring down a carrier. Two TBMs with torps can do it, but it's really difficult to hit a CV with a torpedo in the first place, and if there's any manned guns you're dead anyway before you can get close enough to drop.

So I'd have to say this is one where historical verisimilitude would have to take a backseat to the realities (unrealities?) of the game mechanics.



You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike.


Offline Babalonian

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5817
      • Pigs on the Wing
Re: ship killing, the way it really was
« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2013, 06:27:09 PM »
Strange, I just used torpedoes successfully this morning, sank the cruiser and carrier in one sortie.

The torpedoes aren't the problem, and when done right they deliver a very respectable amount of damage to the target.  It is, however, always a one-way trip in the MAs, they lethality and inability for all forms of a task group's AAA to differentiate between a B-17 to TBM and P51 makes it most unpredjiduce.  You have only a couple seconds at most for your opportunity to drop, during which you must be at the right altitude and speed, before being whammied.

I find Ju-88s are the best, they're tough enough to survive 1-2 seconds longer than any other torp plane, and you get three of them - enough fodder for you to definitively close the distance enough to get past the foremost destroyer screen, and even occasionally within 500-yards of the CV itself!

^ not a new gripe.


I was thinking this morning of a new thought/gripe with the CV auto-puffy ack while simultaneously trying to avoid it but frustrated at it due to chasing geniuses who can't play with more than a two-card deck (come in high, run back to AAA).  I was avoiding it, turning around as soon as the chase lead me into it, but it still persists indefinitely and at a much longer range than what it took to first trigger it.  I could see the cons I had chased into it at dot distance, they were well over their carrier climbing.  This is what I assumed - the puffy ack I first triggered at distance X and was still on me at distance 2X was their neon sign.  No problem I thought, I flew 1-2 minutes away from the carrier now, loosing dot distance and finally all puffy ack, turned back and found them finally leaving the nest.  I dive in, they dive out and back to their CV on the deck, I pick up puffy and turn tail to climb at a further distance - and the loop continues, assumption confirmed.

Puffy ack over CVs should offer a few good things to its friendly players, but I was getting sick and fast of how much it was offering my timid opponents in this instance.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2013, 06:32:13 PM by Babalonian »
-Babalon
"Let's light 'em up and see how they smoke."
POTW IIw Oink! - http://www.PigsOnTheWing.org

Wow, you guys need help.

Offline bangsbox

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1017
Re: ship killing, the way it really was
« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2013, 06:38:26 PM »
Strange, I just used torpedoes successfully this morning, sank the cruiser and carrier in one sortie.

The torpedoes aren't the problem, and when done right they deliver a very respectable amount of damage to the target.  It is, however, always a one-way trip in the MAs, they lethality and inability for all forms of a task group's AAA to differentiate between a B-17 to TBM and P51 makes it most unpredjiduce.  You have only a couple seconds at most for your opportunity to drop, during which you must be at the right altitude and speed, before being whammied.

I find Ju-88s are the best, they're tough enough to survive 1-2 seconds longer than any other torp plane, and you get three of them - enough fodder for you to definitively close the distance enough to get past the foremost destroyer screen, and even occasionally within 500-yards of the CV itself!

^ not a new gripe.


i think the TBM is most survivable torp plane...ive only dont it a couple of times but if you use the Training page on Torps you can almost alway get away alive.  with right lead you drop torp as soon as the destroyers start firing 40mm at you. at that point drop torp and get fly away.

Offline Tilt

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7358
      • FullTilt
Re: ship killing, the way it really was
« Reply #8 on: January 14, 2013, 06:44:02 PM »
I think it's an accuracy thing...... AH Level bombing seems to be very accurate and seems to permit a mix of salvo's and delay's that make a single bomber or tri formation very lethal indeed.
Ludere Vincere

Offline Shane

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7988
Re: ship killing, the way it really was
« Reply #9 on: January 14, 2013, 06:51:40 PM »
I'm pretty sure in WW2 single torpedo planes didn't make runs on capital ships.  Try taking up a flight of 12 tbm's and let me know how it turns out.  Use proper tactics.

Surrounded by suck and underwhelmed with mediocrity.
I'm always right, it just takes some poepl longer to come to that realization than others.
I'm not perfect, but I am closer to it than you are.
"...vox populi, vox dei..."  ~Alcuin ca. 798
Truth doesn't need exaggeration.

Offline Ack-Ack

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 25260
      • FlameWarriors
Re: ship killing, the way it really was
« Reply #10 on: January 14, 2013, 07:26:53 PM »
I'm pretty sure in WW2 single torpedo planes didn't make runs on capital ships.  Try taking up a flight of 12 tbm's and let me know how it turns out.  Use proper tactics.



Battle of Samar in which numerous USN planes made desperate attacks in groups and single attacks against the Japanese battleships and cruisers to cover the retreat of the slow jeep carriers (Taffy 1, Taffy 2 and Taffy 3).  The battle is described in detail in the book "The Last Stand of the Tin Can Sailors" and describes attacks by single TBMs dropping whatever they could on the Japanese ships, including one story of a TBM pilot firing his .38 caliber pistol as he flew over a Japanese cruiser.

ack-ack
"If Jesus came back as an airplane, he would be a P-38." - WW2 P-38 pilot
Elite Top Aces +1 Mexican Official Squadron Song

Offline kvuo75

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3003
Re: ship killing, the way it really was
« Reply #11 on: January 14, 2013, 07:30:13 PM »
Maybe the OP means auto-puffy? The auto-puffy doesn't do much to heavy bombers as it is; they're basically invulnerable to it.



yeah but the auto puffy wouldn't be shooting at a torpedo plane either, unless they for some reason are doing a torp run above 3000msl.

kvuo75

Kill the manned ack.

Offline Soulyss

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6559
      • Aces High Events
Re: ship killing, the way it really was
« Reply #12 on: January 14, 2013, 07:42:34 PM »
Put a standing CAP of fighters over the CV, force the bombers to higher altitudes to avoid interception and someone manning the helm to turn at the appropriate time and the bombers will miss a lot in here too.  :)

*edit*

There are already a couple advantages that torpedo and dive bombers have.  For years now the torpedoes score double the weight in damage to model the hit below the waterline, and now with the introduction of something other than general purpose bombs (the 1000lb AP bomb on the SBD for instance) the ship killers do have a pound for pound advantage over the heavies. 

« Last Edit: January 14, 2013, 07:45:30 PM by Soulyss »
80th FS "Headhunters"
I blame mir.

Offline Volron

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5805
Re: ship killing, the way it really was
« Reply #13 on: January 14, 2013, 08:21:02 PM »
For years now the torpedoes score double the weight in damage to model the hit below the waterline

Wait, what?  I wasn't aware of this.  Hmm...  So I may actually convince some folks into a Kate run against a TG now. :)
Quote from: hitech
Wow I find it hard to believe it has been almost 38 days since our last path. We should have release another 38 versions by now  :bhead
HiTech
Quote from: Pyro
Quote from: Jolly
What on Earth makes you think that i said that sir?!
My guess would be scotch.

Offline Hazard69

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 748
Re: ship killing, the way it really was
« Reply #14 on: January 15, 2013, 08:39:56 AM »
For the purpose of torpedo bombing, I don't think the auto puffy ack is an issue. What I hate are the manned 5" puffies. What I hate most is that they can still blow you away when you are within 40mm range of the CV.

I'd rather there be a minimum distance for those damn 5" proximity fuses (like theres a minimum 1.5k distance on our 88s). As it stands now torpedo runs are only good if theres no one manning the 5" guns (good luck with that  :cry).

And yes as for auto-puffy, it does seem to be a tad uber accurate (especially when you are in a maneuvering dogfight), but doesn't seem to do much to formations (them's 5" fodder :lol). Maybe a touch off on the accuracy and a notch or two more lethality would be in order.  :salute
<S> Hazardus

The loveliest thing of which one could sing, this side of the Heavenly Gates,
Is no blonde or brunette from a Hollywood set, but an escort of P38s.