Author Topic: Titan T-51 Mustang, 75% scale fighter.  (Read 8616 times)

Offline Bodhi

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8698
Re: Titan T-51 Mustang, 75% scale fighter.
« Reply #15 on: January 18, 2013, 08:38:52 PM »
build your own. We had to get another wing for ours due to an accident and the entire wing structure structure of spars and ribs was only $2000. We had all the other hardware from the other wing though.


How did you fixture it?
I regret doing business with TD Computer Systems.

Offline flight17

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1612
Re: Titan T-51 Mustang, 75% scale fighter.
« Reply #16 on: January 20, 2013, 12:08:07 AM »
How did you fixture it?

What's that, the Wing? Everything for the wing we got was premade. The spars were pre drilled for the ribs. And the ribs were stamped out of a single piece of sheet metal ready to go on. The only thing we had to do was prime the pieces. Because we have an L-21B, our wings only have 13 ribs compared to the 16 a normal super cub has.

Very Simplified, We just used two Saw horses, laid the spars across them and slid the ribs on. Once the ribs were in there proper place and fitted correctly, we just screwed them in. After that, we put in the two X cross tension lines ( don't know the proper name for them) and got the wing all squared up. Then came the landing light fixture (it was the left wing) and leading edges and all the other hardware for mounting and the control lines and electrical.

119th Riffle Tank Regiment leader -Red Storm Krupp Steel Scenario

Active Member of Air Heritage Inc. http://airheritage.org/

Offline Bodhi

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8698
Re: Titan T-51 Mustang, 75% scale fighter.
« Reply #17 on: January 20, 2013, 11:36:18 AM »
I was asking because I am curious if people build wings for cubs and such with fixtures.  It has been my experience that regardless if stuff is pre-drilled, you can still put unintended wash into a wing if it is not built properly or set up properly.  On a cub it is likely not as worrisome as it is on a higher performance aircraft.  I have seen and had to rebuild some seriously messed up attempts at building wings in the past.  It really is scary what some people will attempt.

We had some Corsair wings in the shop years back and they were seriously messed up.  We ended up having to "borrow" another Corsair to build fixtures from.  That costs big money unfortunately as most people do not normally lend out aircraft to be taken apart.  Another shop I worked at used the P-38 we used to have to build a complete set of fixtures from it.  That action will likely insure another 4 - 6 flying P-38's from stuff that years back was considered unusable.

I'd like to see pictures of your project if you have time in the future.

I regret doing business with TD Computer Systems.

Offline Golfer

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6314
Re: Titan T-51 Mustang, 75% scale fighter.
« Reply #18 on: January 20, 2013, 03:42:52 PM »
When the winglet on my old airplane got crashed into by a runaway piston twin (under power, unoccupied...) even the replacement winglet didn't come pre drilled.  They're all just that little bit unique.

I did some pretty thorough testing before bringing it home because that was one of the bigger projects I've had a vested ongoing interest in. Since insurance was paying anyway I wanted it just-right. Thanks to some facepalm worthy moments of brilliance from the manufacturer I settled for good enough.  :bhead

I'm making the old smashed winglet into a serving bar for my basement.

Offline VonMessa

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11922
Re: Titan T-51 Mustang, 75% scale fighter.
« Reply #19 on: January 21, 2013, 08:16:46 AM »
I was asking because I am curious if people build wings for cubs and such with fixtures.  It has been my experience that regardless if stuff is pre-drilled, you can still put unintended wash into a wing if it is not built properly or set up properly.  On a cub it is likely not as worrisome as it is on a higher performance aircraft.  I have seen and had to rebuild some seriously messed up attempts at building wings in the past.  It really is scary what some people will attempt.

We had some Corsair wings in the shop years back and they were seriously messed up.  We ended up having to "borrow" another Corsair to build fixtures from.  That costs big money unfortunately as most people do not normally lend out aircraft to be taken apart.  Another shop I worked at used the P-38 we used to have to build a complete set of fixtures from it.  That action will likely insure another 4 - 6 flying P-38's from stuff that years back was considered unusable.

I'd like to see pictures of your project if you have time in the future.



I served an apprenticeship, and worked as, a tool & die maker for the first half of my working years (after the Army).  I worked in a bunch of different shops doing prototypes, building new dies, repairing dies, building new jigs/fixtures and repairing existing jigs/fixtures that were in use on the production floor.

I would think that it would not be very cost-effective to build or commission a jig or fixture for a one-off repair like this. 

I have made some form blocks for the plane that I am scratch-building, and some welding fixtures for when I weld the tube frame.  These are needed due to dimensioning tolerances that must be adhered to and for holding parts in the correct position when welding.  I did contemplate making cutting/stamping dies for the 190+ wing ribs that I need to hammer out, but after doing the math, the cost of tool steel, heat-treating and the need for a (minimum) 20-ton press, just to make the ribs, would cost about the same if I bought them already made and alodined.  I could also have most of them formed by the time I had the dies ready for production.  The only dies (to use in my 10 ton press) I did make, were for flanging the lightening holes in the ribs.  I knew that I wasn't going to sit around flanging them with a notched wooden stick while I watched TV. :D

Braümeister und Schmutziger Hund von JG11


We are all here because we are not all there.

Offline icepac

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6974
Re: Titan T-51 Mustang, 75% scale fighter.
« Reply #20 on: January 21, 2013, 08:36:31 AM »
It's the aluminum bulkheads that are tough to replicate.

You could fabricate them by welding them up but they might not be as strong as the originals.

This new Selective laser melting should make complex bulkheads a lot easier to make.........as long as they make a machine that can fit them inside it.

Offline Bodhi

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8698
Re: Titan T-51 Mustang, 75% scale fighter.
« Reply #21 on: January 21, 2013, 08:52:22 AM »
I served an apprenticeship, and worked as, a tool & die maker for the first half of my working years (after the Army).  I worked in a bunch of different shops doing prototypes, building new dies, repairing dies, building new jigs/fixtures and repairing existing jigs/fixtures that were in use on the production floor.

I would think that it would not be very cost-effective to build or commission a jig or fixture for a one-off repair like this. 

I have made some form blocks for the plane that I am scratch-building, and some welding fixtures for when I weld the tube frame.  These are needed due to dimensioning tolerances that must be adhered to and for holding parts in the correct position when welding.  I did contemplate making cutting/stamping dies for the 190+ wing ribs that I need to hammer out, but after doing the math, the cost of tool steel, heat-treating and the need for a (minimum) 20-ton press, just to make the ribs, would cost about the same if I bought them already made and alodined.  I could also have most of them formed by the time I had the dies ready for production.  The only dies (to use in my 10 ton press) I did make, were for flanging the lightening holes in the ribs.  I knew that I wasn't going to sit around flanging them with a notched wooden stick while I watched TV. :D

It does not seem very cost effective at all, but doing things the right way generally never does.  When you build an airfoil, a small error in shape and dimensions changes the airfoil.  In slower aircraft that change may not be as noticeable.  In higher performance aircraft, the tolerance for deviation is not as accommodating.  I know this after working in restoration for 20+ years and seeing things done the wrong way as well as the right way. 

In regards to costs on fixtures, I built a fixture for a Corsair QEC years back.  It was not cheap, but I considered it  "cost effective" as it allowed us to work on it in a horizontal state at ground level as opposed to being on the airframe 8 feet in the air.  A lot of fixtures do things like that.  They place the work at a level where you can work on it from the ground level as opposed to being on lifts, ladders, stands, or simply being in awkward positions.  Anyone that has worked over their head all day can tell you, it is generally not a pleasant experience.  Further, when you have hard fixed fixtures that are built at and kept at generally the same temperature, they do not change in dimension.  The best fixtures I have ever seen outside of a production line are the fixtures built by another shop I worked with to do P-38 restorations.  They were massively expensive, but they allow the work to be done in a correct and accurate manner.

I regret doing business with TD Computer Systems.

Offline VonMessa

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11922
Re: Titan T-51 Mustang, 75% scale fighter.
« Reply #22 on: January 21, 2013, 09:47:35 AM »
It does not seem very cost effective at all, but doing things the right way generally never does.  When you build an airfoil, a small error in shape and dimensions changes the airfoil.  In slower aircraft that change may not be as noticeable.  In higher performance aircraft, the tolerance for deviation is not as accommodating.  I know this after working in restoration for 20+ years and seeing things done the wrong way as well as the right way. 

In regards to costs on fixtures, I built a fixture for a Corsair QEC years back.  It was not cheap, but I considered it  "cost effective" as it allowed us to work on it in a horizontal state at ground level as opposed to being on the airframe 8 feet in the air.  A lot of fixtures do things like that.  They place the work at a level where you can work on it from the ground level as opposed to being on lifts, ladders, stands, or simply being in awkward positions.  Anyone that has worked over their head all day can tell you, it is generally not a pleasant experience.  Further, when you have hard fixed fixtures that are built at and kept at generally the same temperature, they do not change in dimension.  The best fixtures I have ever seen outside of a production line are the fixtures built by another shop I worked with to do P-38 restorations.  They were massively expensive, but they allow the work to be done in a correct and accurate manner.



I should have been more specific.

I meant for the cub repair that was being discussed.

For the higher-performance aircraft, factoring in safety is always more cost-effective.   :aok
Braümeister und Schmutziger Hund von JG11


We are all here because we are not all there.

Offline Bodhi

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8698
Re: Titan T-51 Mustang, 75% scale fighter.
« Reply #23 on: January 21, 2013, 04:04:23 PM »
VonMessa, I misunderstood your post.  As for a cub wing repair, a fixture does not have to be ridiculously expensive to work.  A cub has a limited number of pick up points, the rest can simply be contours. 

Anyways, I just asked as I was curious how they did it.  It's their aircraft and as long as it is safe, more power to them.  I personally think it is nice seeing people work on their own aircraft when it is done in a safe manner.  It helps to keep the interest alive.
I regret doing business with TD Computer Systems.

Offline Reaper90

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3322
Re: Titan T-51 Mustang, 75% scale fighter.
« Reply #24 on: January 21, 2013, 06:22:15 PM »
All you guys with your fancy metal and composite aircraft, tisk tisk....

I'm a woodworker, and have been for years. Wood and fabric is "where it's at."

When you really get down to it, for sheer enjoyment, who needs to go 300mph or carry your whole family? I mean, if you need an aircraft for carrying the whole family, then rent one.... but for fun, I'm prepping my shop to building one of these:



Staaken Z-21 Flitzer (this image because I'm going to do the round-tail version)








Remarkably simple little aircraft, powered by a VW such as an AeroVee or RevMaster... all wood and fabric, plans built.

http://www.flitzerbiplane.com

 :aok
Floyd
'Murican dude in a Brit Squad flying Russian birds, drinking Canadian whiskey

Offline flight17

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1612
Re: Titan T-51 Mustang, 75% scale fighter.
« Reply #25 on: January 21, 2013, 07:36:52 PM »
Bodhi, will post some pics when I get the chance if... I think i have some of it while it was being laid up. In the last month it has sincle been covered, so wont be able to take any knew ones. Lol

But Like I said, what I posted is very simplified. I didn't work on it much except for when we first got the parts in.
119th Riffle Tank Regiment leader -Red Storm Krupp Steel Scenario

Active Member of Air Heritage Inc. http://airheritage.org/

Offline Bodhi

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8698
Re: Titan T-51 Mustang, 75% scale fighter.
« Reply #26 on: January 21, 2013, 09:07:04 PM »
All you guys with your fancy metal and composite aircraft, tisk tisk....

I'm a woodworker, and have been for years. Wood and fabric is "where it's at."

When you really get down to it, for sheer enjoyment, who needs to go 300mph or carry your whole family? I mean, if you need an aircraft for carrying the whole family, then rent one.... but for fun, I'm prepping my shop to building one of these:


Nothing wrong with working with wood.  I have built a few wooden wings in my days, most notably the Stearman that is on display at Ford Island has wings that I built as well as a fabric job that I did.  I love doing fabric althoug I do not like the long term effects the solvents have on the body...

I will say one thing about wood though, stuff has to be damn accurate to fit together without gaps for a strong structure.  That is where a real craftsman knows when he has "done" it.  Same goes for a guy working sheetmetal and fitting a complex curve to an airframe and seeing it lay flat and true against the frame.  Those are "good" days. 
I regret doing business with TD Computer Systems.

Offline VonMessa

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11922
Re: Titan T-51 Mustang, 75% scale fighter.
« Reply #27 on: January 22, 2013, 07:37:14 AM »
VonMessa, I misunderstood your post.  As for a cub wing repair, a fixture does not have to be ridiculously expensive to work.  A cub has a limited number of pick up points, the rest can simply be contours. 

Anyways, I just asked as I was curious how they did it.  It's their aircraft and as long as it is safe, more power to them.  I personally think it is nice seeing people work on their own aircraft when it is done in a safe manner.  It helps to keep the interest alive.

Ha!

Talking about keeping the interest alive...

My parents have a vacation house on the Chesapeake and I have been going down there for years.  Usually, we do all of our adventuring on my parents' boat or my sailboat but one day, my wife and I decided to take the Jeep out for a drive.  A few miles down the road, I saw a sign that said "Aerodrome" with an arrow pointing ahead.  Well, of course I had to check it out...

 :x

The goon is real, the corsair is not. (disregard the misc other photos)
http://s239.beta.photobucket.com/user/tymekeepyr/library/Massey%20Aerodrome

I will have to find some pics of my local EAA Chapter planes, as well.

Braümeister und Schmutziger Hund von JG11


We are all here because we are not all there.

Offline VonMessa

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11922
Re: Titan T-51 Mustang, 75% scale fighter.
« Reply #28 on: January 22, 2013, 07:48:23 AM »
All you guys with your fancy metal and composite aircraft, tisk tisk....

I'm a woodworker, and have been for years. Wood and fabric is "where it's at."

When you really get down to it, for sheer enjoyment, who needs to go 300mph or carry your whole family? I mean, if you need an aircraft for carrying the whole family, then rent one.... but for fun, I'm prepping my shop to building one of these:

(Image removed from quote.)

Staaken Z-21 Flitzer (this image because I'm going to do the round-tail version)

(Image removed from quote.)

(Image removed from quote.)

(Image removed from quote.)


Remarkably simple little aircraft, powered by a VW such as an AeroVee or RevMaster... all wood and fabric, plans built.

http://www.flitzerbiplane.com

 :aok

Wife wanted more space and payload for travel.

Keep prepping, I'm building   :neener:












Braümeister und Schmutziger Hund von JG11


We are all here because we are not all there.

Offline Reaper90

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3322
Re: Titan T-51 Mustang, 75% scale fighter.
« Reply #29 on: January 24, 2013, 08:20:50 AM »
Wife wanted more space and payload for travel.

Keep prepping, I'm building   :neener:

(Image removed from quote.)

(Image removed from quote.)

(Image removed from quote.)

(Image removed from quote.)

(Image removed from quote.)

(Image removed from quote.)


<--- green with envy....

I'm still a ways of from being able to start...mostly due to space constraints...Got a few other projects to complete and moved out of the shop, and build of those nifty eaa assembly tables to work on.
Floyd
'Murican dude in a Brit Squad flying Russian birds, drinking Canadian whiskey