Author Topic: Countering the Barrel Roll  (Read 751 times)

Offline Slade

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Countering the Barrel Roll
« on: January 22, 2013, 08:58:02 AM »
So there you are co-alt and closing fast on your target just in front of you.  1k or just under.  Then he starts the barrel roll craziness.  I believe the goal of this is to end up on YOUR six or the equivalent.  Ideally: he cuts throttle, rolls around you and there he is on YOUR six.  I could be wrong but that is what is seems.

I can detect a barrell roll manuever nearly immediately.  Currently I just try to do the unexpected.  Not the best plan.

How do you long time AH vets counter the barrel roll as described here?

[Barrel Roller Sidebar]
I should add this for all you barrel roll junkies out there.  In flying this game for 5+ years I have not been shot down once by this technique.  Maybe I am lucky but it is just a nuisance to me that I want to get better at dealing with.



Thanks for your advice,

Slade  :salute
« Last Edit: January 22, 2013, 08:59:38 AM by Slade »
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Offline TequilaChaser

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Re: Countering the Barrel Roll
« Reply #1 on: January 22, 2013, 09:19:53 AM »
Depending on how fast I am closing, I might do a low G lag roll opposite direction of the defenders barrelroll... or possibly an out-of-plane oblique turn to stay behind and on their six/high six

TC
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Offline titanic3

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Re: Countering the Barrel Roll
« Reply #2 on: January 22, 2013, 09:23:56 AM »
They just bled speed and E doing that barrel roll. Pop WEP if you haven't already, zoom on by and take the fight vertical, he just gave you an E advantage. Just caution that you don't fly in front of his guns when you zoom by. This won't work either if he is in a top tier plane and you are not. If he's in a 109K4 and you're in a P40, he has more than enough engine power to make up for the loss of E, and will catch you if you go vertical.

  the game is concentrated on combat, not on shaking the screen.

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Offline Debrody

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Re: Countering the Barrel Roll
« Reply #3 on: January 22, 2013, 09:29:33 AM »
I cant recall when i have seen anyone doing this. The usual move is just a simple split-S towards the friends or the ack.

What is more common, also much more effective: break flat and reverse in "uphill", then go for the snapshot. Burns less E, yet its easyer to get caught when you are doing something wrong.

To counter an energy-burning move, you have two choices:
-conserve your E (pull up). Its very simple, sure success, but i dont really like it. Or,
-try to follow the opponent and beat him in his own game. This is the elegant way.
Of course, when im in a 190 and my opponent is a spit, its evident, which one im going to choose.
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Offline hitech

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Re: Countering the Barrel Roll
« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2013, 10:05:38 AM »
If both sides perform the maneuver correctly, it should transition to a rolling scissors.

A good pilot would not cut the throttle on this maneuver but instead drop the speed in the vertical.

HiTech


Offline Flench

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Re: Countering the Barrel Roll
« Reply #5 on: January 22, 2013, 10:08:29 AM »
Right on Hitech ...
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Offline Badboy

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Re: Countering the Barrel Roll
« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2013, 10:11:02 AM »
So there you are co-alt and closing fast on your target just in front of you.  1k or just under.  Then he starts the barrel roll craziness.  I believe the goal of this is to end up on YOUR six or the equivalent.  Ideally: he cuts throttle, rolls around you and there he is on YOUR six.  I could be wrong but that is what is seems.

I can detect a barrell roll manuever nearly immediately.  Currently I just try to do the unexpected.  Not the best plan.

How do you long time AH vets counter the barrel roll as described here?

[Barrel Roller Sidebar]
I should add this for all you barrel roll junkies out there.  In flying this game for 5+ years I have not been shot down once by this technique.  Maybe I am lucky but it is just a nuisance to me that I want to get better at dealing with.


You mention that you are closing fast on your target, and in this situation you have a number of options. I'm going to explain them in order of increasing speed/energy.

Firstly you could try to control your closure and saddle up on your opponent's six for the kill. However if you try but fail to control your closure adequately you may end up forced into a rolling scissors in your attempt to avoid the overshoot. The decision to try this option will depend on if in your judgement you will be able to control your closure. If the answer is clearly no, then you need to try the next option.

If you can see that you won't be able to control your closure enough to secure a six o'clock position, but it is a close call because you have just a little too much speed, then try this next option. Yo-Yo off early, pull your nose high and then role back to your target's high six for a second attack with your speed and closure under control, repeat if necessary.

If you have too much speed for the Yo-Yo, you still have the option to break off high, but this time position your self above your target keeping your nose high and holding low g, in effect you are inviting your target to follow you up. As you see him turn into you, begin a spiral climb and if you had as much energy as you thought you did your target will lose his energy first and fall off his turn at low speed, at which point you should be able to drop back onto his six for an easy kill. This sort of maneuver is often referred to in-game as the rope-a-dope because experienced pilots will recognise the energy difference and won't follow you up.

If you have way too much speed, and you want to press your attack anyway, you have two significant problems. Firstly if you are much faster than your target you will have a large turn radius and you won't be able to follow their break turn, so an experienced pilot will be able to execute a successful guns defense, and a more aggressive target will use the barrel role defense and look for the shot as you blow through.  The first thing here is that once you become aware you won't make the shot, the worst thing you can do is to continue tracking the target or pulling into him, that will improve his chance of a successful shot dramatically. The key here is to break off the attack away from the bandit while keeping your nose low to maintain your speed. You simply need to be far enough way in the seconds it will take him to line up on you, to make his parting shot unlikely to hit. If you were right and your speed was high enough, you should be able to do that without any real concern. As soon as you are clear, you need to do a high reversal and resposition above your target for your follow up attack. Don't extend and climb out, don't take your time, you need to do this quickly, the less time you spend repositioning the less time your target will have to regain energy, regain situational awareness and regain their composure. You should force as high a tempo as possible, don't give your target time to recover between attacks.

In doing this you will expend more energy than your target, who will be attempting to equalise energy, so as the energy margin closes you should be looking for the opportunity to revert to one of the previous options where you seek a solid position rather than a passing snap shot.

I haven't mentioned all of the subtleties here but this should give you something to think about.

Good luck with it, and have fun.

Badboy
« Last Edit: January 22, 2013, 10:18:25 AM by Badboy »
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Offline Chalenge

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Re: Countering the Barrel Roll
« Reply #7 on: January 22, 2013, 01:00:53 PM »
Slade, you just haven't found someone that knows how to pull it off, or you have already come to understand how to beat the move. From your description, and as Hitech pointed out they are trying to set you up in a rolling scissor. It's a good move to try defensively, because so many people are not very good at maintaining sight on their opponent.

From my notes to the Sick Puppies:

In the classic rolling scissor the attacker and defender pull constant Gs and constantly roll which leads to the spiral helix of death. You dont want to get into this situation because 1) the first enemy that comes along will kill you and 2) the first friendly that comes along is going to steal your kill. Also almost no one can maintain any kind of SA while in this type of situation and that leads to getting killed or hitting the ground.



So in the first phase of the maneuver you want to get out of the gun window of the attacker (position 1 in the following image). When you know the attacker is about to overshoot you need to pitch up into a nose high climb. While vertical you want to roll your canopy into lead pursuit (line up the center of the canopy with airspace in front of your attacker). He will see that if he continues straight he is going to offer you a gun solution so he will turn under you.

From this point on you own this guy. The entire maneuver belongs to you as long as you FORCE every move the attacker makes.

At the top of the egg (position 2) you want to load up for a hard turn back down and then relax the stick to build energy but make sure to keep your lift vector in lead (ahead of the attacker). At position 3 you have already gained 90 degrees on your attacker (if you did everything right). Now concentrate and pull just enough Gs to get your canopy close to your opponent without scaring him too much. Usually if you can punch through the middle point of his loop he wont realize how much of an advantage you have (if he does he will run). At position 4 the attacker will be pulling hard because it appears to him that he is winning. Because you have not been pulling hard along the bottom of your egg (which incidentally is above the bottom of his egg) you have the energy to load up more than the attacker and get around the top of the egg about the time your opponent realizes he does not have the energy (position 5). As your opponent considers his escape options you are just 90 degrees off his tail. If he dives away you can roll inverted and follow with more than enough evergy to turn inside him.



It doesnt always go that easy but thats the concept.
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Offline icepac

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Re: Countering the Barrel Roll
« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2013, 01:28:16 PM »
Works best with lag on demand.

Offline Zacherof

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Re: Countering the Barrel Roll
« Reply #9 on: January 26, 2013, 05:37:14 PM »
Hit them with a tater. Ends their intentions immediately.
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Offline Tank-Ace

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Re: Countering the Barrel Roll
« Reply #10 on: January 26, 2013, 10:56:06 PM »
If they chopped throttle, my go-to move was the high yo-yo.

Essentially turned it into an e fight.
You started this thread and it was obviously about your want and desire in spite of your use of 'we' and Google.

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Offline ToeTag

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Re: Countering the Barrel Roll
« Reply #11 on: January 26, 2013, 11:06:21 PM »
plane set is critical to the decision.....A YO YO maneuver is best to counter act this....close and when you see the roll come go vert and dive back in.  continue until ...well you know
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