P51 service ceiling

[GScholz]

No, why would I? I fly the 109F in the LW arena and it is quite competitive. Regardless of Oldman's "American perspective", WWII started in 1939, and I dare anyone who has a differing opinion to find a published historian who thinks otherwise. Some of the largest, and most important battles of the war happened before America officially got involved.

[leitwolf]

War in the Pacific started in 1937. Can be argued to be earlier. Just saying 

[GScholz]

The Second Sino-Japanese War was not a "world war". The German invasion of Poland is considered the start of WWII because it provoked two world-spanning empires into declaring war on Germany.

[leitwolf]

The Second Sino-Japanese War was not a "world war". The German invasion of Poland is considered the start of WWII because it provoked two world-spanning empires into declaring war on Germany.

That's the European perspective (You see what i did there) 
Japan's war against China had nothing to do with them declaring war on the US later on?
The USSR fought quite a substantial campaign against Japan in 1938 to 39.
Vast territories .. certainly more global in geography than Poland no?
You know I'm pulling your leg here, don't you
However, I think it is worth looking at things from a different perspective sometimes (even though you are right about the usual definition of WW2 of course)

[Babalonian]

Sounds like a typical day in the MA...



"<snip>"

(Image removed from quote.)

Perspective, perspective...  indeed, quite like the MA.

Two of the Best

It was the 14th April 1945 and the war against Germany was rapidly drawing to an end. A young New Zealander from Nelson, Warrant Officer Owen Mitchell, had found that he was centre-stage to the death-throes of a nation.

An excellent cricketer and sensitive musician Mitchell had joined the RNZAF in 1942 directly from University where he had been studying engineering. At 20 years of age the young pilot transferred to England where, after training, he started to accumulate flying hours as an instructor and pilot with various Operational Training Units.

By early 1945 Mitchell had over 700 hours to his credit and was converted onto the latest fighter in the RAF inventory - the Hawker Tempest V. The next step was operational flying and he was delighted, when in early March he found that he had been posted to No. 486 (NZ) Squadron based at Volkel in Holland. The squadron was on the front-line and coming into daily contact with a still very efficient Luftwaffe as well as fierce anti-aircraft fire.

By early April the squadron had moved into Germany itself and was using their base at Hopsten to harass the enemy both in the air and on the ground.

At the German base of Neustadt-Glewe, Oberfeldwebel Sattler was also delighted with his new posting - to the elite Luftwaffe unit called the Stabsschwarm (part of JG301). They were flying the latest German fighter and ultimate development of the Focke Wulf 190 series of aircraft - the Ta-152.

At 6-25pm on the evening of the 14th Mitchell and three others from his squadron took off on an armed reconnaissance of the area. The section attacked a train north of Ludwigslust and then became split up. The leader and his number two ordering Sid Short and Owen Mitchell to make their own ways home.

Short and Mitchell, busily strafing along the rail tracks nearby on their way home, came under the watchful eye of lookouts at Neustadt-Glewe who immediately despatched three Ta-152 to intercept. The pilots - Aufhammer, Sattler and Reschke were on the scene in seconds. Reschke takes up the story;

"Flying in No.3 position I witnessed Oberfeldwebel Sattler ahead of me dive into the ground seconds before we reached them. It seemed impossible for the crash to be from enemy action."

Unknown to Reschke the New Zealander Short had managed to fire at Sattler in a quick pass before being attacked by Aufhammer. Friend and foe now started a turning match that seemed to last forever. Neither could gain the advantage and after 15 minutes the two pilots broke away and returned to their respective bases - glad to be able to fly home in one piece.

In the meantime Reschke and Mitchell were also in mortal combat.

"So now it was two against two as the ground level dogfight began... <snipped for long repeat> .... he crashed into the woods immediately below us."

The young New Zealander was killed instantly and in a quirk of fate his aircraft crashed less than 500 metres from the German pilot Sattler. The Luftwaffe technicians recovered the two pilots' bodies that evening.

The next day Mitchell and Sattler were buried side by side with full military honours in the Cemetery Neustadt-Glewe. During the funeral Oberfeldwebel Willi Reschke stood guard of honour in front of the coffins.

It is fitting to end this story here by allowing these two relatively unknown pilots - each flying arguably the most advanced piston-engined fighter produced by their respective nations to see service in the air war over Western Europe - to represent the many thousands on both sides who had gone before.

Footnote:

In 1947 the body of Owen James Mitchell was reinterred in the British Military Cemetery in Heerstrasse, Berlin. The Missing Research and Enquiry Unit who recovered the body in September 1947 noted;

"We visited the area (now in the Russian Zone) and found Body No. 1. This body was found to be clothed in khaki battledress and had New Zealand marked on the shoulder. The socks were RAF blue and the boots RAF escape type flying boots. On a handkerchief found in the pocket I found the name Pettitt in print letters, about ¼ inch high on the hem."

Owen Mitchell, the New Zealander from Nelson was killed 18 days before the end of hostilities.

[uptown]

Actually I'm pretty sure WW2 started the moment Hitler got a nut blown off in WW1. He vowed from that day forward someone was going to pay.......guess he meant it 

[GScholz]

Perspective, perspective...  indeed, quite like the MA.

 

On the Eastern Front they fought like that all the time.

[GScholz]

Despite popular belief, like those expressed by Chalenge, only in regard to long-range strategic bombing did aircraft technology strive to go ever higher. In all other fields of combat the altitudes were far less, usually below 15k feet, because they flew in support of ground or naval operations. They could bomb a city from 30k, however attacking ground forces or ships required far greater accuracy. We see this clearly in the summer of 1944 as the Western Front stopped being only a strategic bombing campaign: With the Normandie landings the primary task of the Allied air forces changed, with the RAF and USAAF being tasked to support ground forces, interdict enemy forces and conduct airfield denial operations. Quite suddenly Allied fighter pilots went from having to fight at nose bleed altitudes to having to dodge church spires.

From the summer of 1944 onwards the air war in the west changed to the same type of air war that had been fought everywhere else since the start of the war. Our "war" in the "arenas" mimics this type of air war very well (for a game). While there are a few players who fly high, long-range, strategic bombing raids, most of our "war" is airfield denial (capping/vulching), supporting ground operations (capturing/defending) and supporting naval forces (carrier ops).

[Oldman731]

From the summer of 1944 onwards the air war in the west changed to the same type of air war that had been fought everywhere else since the start of the war. Our "war" in the "arenas" mimics this type of air war very well (for a game). While there are a few players who fly high, long-range, strategic bombing raids, most of our "war" is airfield denial (capping/vulching), supporting ground operations (capturing/defending) and supporting naval forces (carrier ops).

No.  Just....no.  With the barely-arguable exception of the period June-August, 1944, and again in January, 1945, Luftwaffe activity on the Western front after the invasion was virtually entirely directed to opposing the Eighth Air Force.  Even the forward-based Gruppen - and there were only a handful of those after August 1944 - were often directed to 8th AF interception.

"Airfield denial," such as it exists in AH, may have occurred in the Pacific, and it may have occurred ("may") during the 1940-41 German invasions of Norway-Denmark-Belgium-France-Yugoslavia-Greece-Crete-USSR, but otherwise there was no real-world counterpart for the type of land-grab we have here.

- oldman

[GScholz]

This chart is from the United States Strategic Bombing Survey's report "The Defeat of the German Air Force". It shows the German allocation of single-engined fighters on fronts and in roles throughout the war. After Normandy the majority of Luftwaffe fighters on the Western Front were fighting in a tactical role in support of German ground forces, as opposed to in a strategic defense role.




Airfield denial operations were, and are, an essential part of air warfare doctrine. Cratering the runways, destroying fuel tanks and hangars, strafing planes on the ground... From the Battle of France to the Battle of Berlin it was the primary objective of tactical aviation on all sides. In late 1944 and in 1945 Allied fighters would circle German airfields like vultures; that's how most of the 262s claimed by Allied fighters were shot down. Vulched on landing.

[Oldman731]

This chart is from the United States Strategic Bombing Survey's report "The Defeat of the German Air Force". It shows the German allocation of single-engined fighters on fronts and in roles throughout the war. After Normandy the majority of Luftwaffe fighters on the Western Front were fighting in a tactical role in support of German ground forces, as opposed to in a strategic defense role.
*****
Airfield denial operations were, and are, an essential part of air warfare doctrine. Cratering the runways, destroying fuel tanks and hangars, strafing planes on the ground... From the Battle of France to the Battle of Berlin it was the primary objective of tactical aviation on all sides. In late 1944 and in 1945 Allied fighters would circle German airfields like vultures; that's how most of the 262s claimed by Allied fighters were shot down. Vulched on landing.

The graph simply indicates the German organization table.  We would need a task-per-sortie table to demonstrate that most of the post-invasion Luftwaffe missions were flown as low altitude tactical missions.  "Western Front Tactical Force" units, such as JG26, were frequently committed to high-altitude interception missions.

Certainly airfield strafing pre- and post-invasion was a major role for Allied fighters.  Vulching was a high-risk mission which eventually accounted for more Allied losses than enemy aircraft did.  I can't think of any operation, after Crete, which duplicates AH's land-grab feature.

- oldman

[GScholz]

Ok, so we're down from "virtually entirely" to "frequently". We're making progress.

In reality JG26 was almost entirely committed to countering Allied fighter-bombers and to providing support to German ground forces. The Luftwaffe were in fact pulling units away from Reichsverteidigung to reinforce JG2 and JG26 in their tactical role. Alongside them some 20 gruppen would fly intensively over the French battlefields during the summer of 1944. Later they were withdrawn to the Netherlands and were heavily engaged in close support and interdiction tasks during Operation Market Garden. After that they withdrew to Germany to rebuild their strength. After Bodenplatte in January 1945, JG26 was tasked for the rest of the war to provide what support it could for the German Armies defending the Northern sector of the Western Front.

It is noteworthy that in this time period also the Allied air forces had more fighters tasked with close support and interdiction than on protecting bombers. In an effort to encourage their pilots to attack German airfields, Allied command allowed them to claim aircraft destroyed on the ground as victories. Later this would be rescinded however.

"Duplicate" is your word. I used the word "mimics". This is a game, it will never be a true representation of real life.

[MiloMorai]

oldman you could always go thro Tony Wood's Lw claim list. It usually gives the altitude.

[Oldman731]

oldman you could always go thro Tony Wood's Lw claim list. It usually gives the altitude.

Thanks!  It will take me some time to puzzle through them, I haven't found the altitude figures yet.  But there are certainly a lot of 4-engine bomber claims.

- oldman

[MiloMorai]

1. August 1944
JaFü II. Jagdkorps/Lfl. 3:
01.08.44 Ofhr. Heckmann 9./JG 1 P-51  AA-AB-BA-BB Sées-L'Aigle: 100-150 m. 14.58 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.30
01.08.44 Uffz. Brechtold 9./JG 1 P-51  AA-AB-BA-BB Sées-L'Aigle: 100-150 m. 15.00 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.31
01.08.44 Uffz. Alfred Reckhenrich 15./JG 27 B-26  La Meignanne-Angers: 6.000 m. 16.45 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: 36

Bold is altitude in meters.