Author Topic: P51 service ceiling  (Read 9236 times)

Offline icepac

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Re: P51 service ceiling
« Reply #15 on: January 24, 2013, 10:36:32 AM »
Yep, correct.

Also....."altitude at which airplane flys badly" is not the same as service ceiling.

 

Offline GScholz

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Re: P51 service ceiling
« Reply #16 on: January 24, 2013, 10:53:37 AM »
The higher you fly the more important it becomes to fly coordinated. Something very few do in this game.
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Offline tunnelrat

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Re: P51 service ceiling
« Reply #17 on: January 25, 2013, 11:25:59 AM »
You bank to the point at which the inboard wing is parallel to the ground, and you use the rudder to turn.


If your inboard wing is parallel to the ground, how can you be banking?

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Offline Karnak

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Re: P51 service ceiling
« Reply #18 on: January 25, 2013, 11:56:21 AM »
If your inboard wing is parallel to the ground, how can you be banking?


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Offline Chalenge

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Re: P51 service ceiling
« Reply #19 on: January 25, 2013, 01:48:34 PM »
If your inboard wing is parallel to the ground, how can you be banking?

Every plane in this game except maybe the Arado Ar234 have positive dihedral, and I think the 234 does also but it's very little.

One contrast with reality is the way most people in AH go about combat. In WWII it was ever higher, ever faster. In AH it is ever slower, ever lower. Of course, it's not the game that has created that mindset, but I think the people refusing to play the game the way it was designed.
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Offline GScholz

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Re: P51 service ceiling
« Reply #20 on: January 25, 2013, 09:35:17 PM »
That's relative Chalenge... Some experienced pilots used throttle control very effectively. Marseilles' tactic to counter the allied Lufbery circle was to fly inside it... sometimes so slow that he needed to deploy flaps. I've read other accounts of both German and Finnish 109 pilots throttling down and using flaps to turn inside of their Russian opponents. In this game we are immortal, and thus we fight with utter disregard for our own safety... However, every move, every trick we employ to win our cartoon fights have been done in real life by some desperate soul trying to stay alive.
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Offline Karnak

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Re: P51 service ceiling
« Reply #21 on: January 25, 2013, 09:40:41 PM »
Ever lower, possibly.  Ever slower, not sure what game you are playing.  The life for slow turny planes has gotten harder and harder in AH in recent years.  P-51Ds didn't become as dominant as they are because they are good at slow and turny.
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Offline GScholz

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Re: P51 service ceiling
« Reply #22 on: January 25, 2013, 10:00:23 PM »
Sounds like a typical day in the MA...



"-As the direction of take-off was in line with the railway tracks leading straight to Ludwigslust, we were almost immediately in contact with enemy fighters, which turned out to be Tempests Flying in No. 3 position. I witnessed Oberfeldwebel Sattler ahead seconds before we reached them. It was hardly possible for his crash to have been the result of enemy action, as the two Tempest had clearly only just registered our presence. So it was now two against two as the ground-level dogfight began. We knew the Tempest to be a very fast fighter, used by the British to chase and shoot-down our V-1s. But here, in a fight which would not rise above 50m, speed would not play a big part. The machines ability to turn would be all important. Both pilots realized from the start it would be a fight to the finish and used every flying trick and tactical ploy possible to gain the upper hand. At this altitude neither could afford to make the slightest mistake. And for the first time since flying the Ta 152 I began to fully appreciate exactly what this aircraft could do.

Pulling ever tighter turns I got closer and closer to the Tempest, never once felling that I was approaching the limit of the Ta 152 capabilities. And in order to keep out of my sights , the Tempest pilot was being forced to take increasingly dangerous evasive action. When he flicked over onto the opposite wing I knew his last attempt to turn inside of me had failed.

The first burst of fire from my Ta 152 caught the Tempest in the tail and rear fuselage. The enemy aircraft shuddered noticeably and, probably as an instinctive reaction, the Tempest pilot immediately yoked into a starboard turn, giving me an even greater advantage. Now there was no escape for the Tempest. I pressed my gun buttons a second time, but after a few rounds my weapon went silent, and despite all my efforts to clear them, refused to fire another shot. I can no longer remember just who and what I didn't curse. But fortunately the Tempest pilot didn't realize my predicament as he'd already taken hits. Instead he continued desperately to twist and turn and I positioned myself, so I was always just within his field of vision. Eventually-inevitably-he stalled. The Tempest's left wing dropped and he crashed into the woods below.

It so happened that that the site of Oberfeldwebel Sattler's crash site and that of the Tempest pilot, who proved to be New Zealander Wt Off O. J. Mitchell, were only about a kilometer apart. They were buried side-by-side in Neustadt-Glewe cemetery next day with full military honors."


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Offline Chalenge

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Re: P51 service ceiling
« Reply #23 on: January 26, 2013, 04:44:02 PM »
That's relative Chalenge... Some experienced pilots used throttle control very effectively. Marseilles' tactic to counter the allied Lufbery circle was to fly inside it... sometimes so slow that he needed to deploy flaps. I've read other accounts of both German and Finnish 109 pilots throttling down and using flaps to turn inside of their Russian opponents. In this game we are immortal, and thus we fight with utter disregard for our own safety... However, every move, every trick we employ to win our cartoon fights have been done in real life by some desperate soul trying to stay alive.

Irrelevant, since you are comparing early war to late war.

@Karnak: see the thread on the F4U and how it can hover with full flap deployment. Ever lower ever slower applies. The survival rate is like the Tempest  vs 152 story, I.E. 1 for 1. Good luck with that.
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Offline GScholz

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Re: P51 service ceiling
« Reply #24 on: January 26, 2013, 06:27:05 PM »
How am I "comparing early war to late war" ?
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Offline Chalenge

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Re: P51 service ceiling
« Reply #25 on: January 26, 2013, 09:20:28 PM »
Marseille died in 1942. Pretty obvious.
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Offline GScholz

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Re: P51 service ceiling
« Reply #26 on: January 26, 2013, 11:22:25 PM »
1942 is not early war. Not for Europeans anyway. 1942 is Stalingrad, El Alamein, Hamburg, it's when the fortunes of war turned against Germany. The Finns didn't get their 109s until 1943, and that is certainly not early in the war.

'39 - '40 - '41 - '42 - '43 - '44 - '45

1942 is as mid-war as you can get. Pretty obvious.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2013, 11:25:49 PM by GScholz »
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Offline earl1937

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Re: P51 service ceiling
« Reply #27 on: January 27, 2013, 03:05:39 PM »
 :airplane:Question: Are you allowing the "game" to control your fuel burn? If you are, you are making a mistake! Burn your internal,(fuseledge tank first), then your outer's. Remember, the "Ponies" CG moves to the rear as you burn fuel and if you leave the game to manage it for you, by the time you get to 30K, your CG is to far aft for maximum turn and climb performance. Most single engine aircraft perform their best with a neutral or forward CG. The reason for this is simple, with a "aft" CG, the aircraft's natural tendency is for the nose to pitch up during a turn, hence decaying your speed more in a turn than with a forward or neutral CG. Check the AOA,(angle of attack) of the wing at various fuel loads and you will see real quick that the top speed is reached with a slight "negtive" AOA, not with a "postive" AOA!









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Offline Oldman731

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Re: P51 service ceiling
« Reply #28 on: January 27, 2013, 07:53:52 PM »
1942 is not early war. Not for Europeans anyway. 1942 is Stalingrad, El Alamein, Hamburg, it's when the fortunes of war turned against Germany. The Finns didn't get their 109s until 1943, and that is certainly not early in the war.

'39 - '40 - '41 - '42 - '43 - '44 - '45

1942 is as mid-war as you can get. Pretty obvious.


So delete the first three years and you'll have the American perspective.

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Offline Chalenge

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Re: P51 service ceiling
« Reply #29 on: January 28, 2013, 12:03:23 AM »
Apparently someone has never gone into Early War arena.   :rolleyes:
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