Philosophies for surviving knife fights

[ink]

Minimum altitude split-s is a good move against a higher speed enemy, or an enemy with a larger turn radius for whatever reason, on your six.  If he follows your split-s he will auger, if he doesn't he'll have to break off and you'll be clear.

this seems to be the "go-to" move.... when getting jumped in the MA.....

to me it is a last ditch move, one only done when absolutely necessary.

[Changeup]

That's an odd example since the Zeke has both a better turn rate and a smaller radius in a knife fight so you aren't exactly proving your point. I understand what you're saying here about speed affecting the radius and I got your original point but your original statement is incorrect and my concern is that it's misleading to people reading this for advice.  

The smallest radius is at corner speed and when you're below your best sustained turn speed going slower makes the radius bigger. The fact that radius favors nose to nose and rate favors nose to tail is simply physics. It doesn't mean you have to make that choice to be successful in a particular instance, it just makes success more likely in general.

A fast Zeke....I used a Zeke in the example because YOU brought up turn rates.  The Zeke example is if the Zeke comes into a fight fast.  Most people new in the game will try turn with anything they are within firing range of.  A Zeke dives into a fight a D just won, he's going too fast turn maximize his turn rate, the D is already slow and pops him because the Zeke was too fast and couldn't turn once or twice with him.  It happens everyday in here and it's absolutely counter to what you say is a half-truth.

I'll say it again, only better.  

Don't try to turn with a plane that's significantly slower than you are.  Assume he knows what he's doing and he will outmaneuver you because it's easier to jerk a slow plane around in a smaller airspace than it is to jerk your fast plane around in the same airspace.  

I can't think of one example that this is arguable.  Maybe we are defining knife fight differently I don't know.  To me, it's low and slow and vulnerable.  So, a fast Zeke will make a wider circle than a slow D with his boards out.  If the Zeke tries to use the flat turn its already committed to in order to help slow itself down, it WILL lose because the D made a smaller circle.  If the Zeke decides to figure 8 to slow down AND use its superior turn rate....ding ding ding, we have a winner.  My initial statement assumed you were on the deck or close to it and the faster plane wasn't not going to go vertical.

[Wiley]

this seems to be the "go-to" move.... when getting jumped in the MA.....

to me it is a last ditch move, one only done when absolutely necessary.

Agreed, I never understood that one myself.  I don't give up alt willingly.

Edit:  As to the point of the thread, in a multi-bandit situation speed is life.  If you slow down, someone faster will almost inevitably saddle you.

Wiley.

[cactuskooler]

this seems to be the "go-to" move.... when getting jumped in the MA.....

to me it is a last ditch move, one only done when absolutely necessary.

No I don't mean split-s and run in the typical encounter when many better options are available.  That won't kill the enemy.  I mean when you're at very low altitude, any lower and the split-s will land you six feet under the ground, and there's a faster enemy behind you following through your turns who has you dead to rights.

I'm in a 38 at 1200ish ft, 200ish mph, flaps out and turning in a tight furball, then I see an enemy 38 fixated on my tail at 600 out and closing just a bit.  If I turn left or right, I'm dead.  Go up, I'm very dead.  Go straight, dead.  If I split-s at that altitude I'll recover just below the treetops, hopefully.  I know the enemy 38's closing on me, so he's faster than me.  And that speed advantage means if he tries to follow me through the split-s, he'll have a slightly larger turn radius and end up hitting the trees.  His options are to follow you and auger, or break off the attack and lose his angle advantage.

If he's good, the enemy will follow just long enough to make you commit to your split-s, then he'll do a high yo-yo and be right back on you, though you'll have more room to work with.  They're the minority.

Most enemies start to follow you through the split-s, see they're going to auger, and break off, briefly lose sight, and focus on recovering.  Meanwhile you quickly reverse back into them and shoot 'em.  Most enemies do this.

Then the target fixated, tunnel visioned enemies try to follow and end up giving you an auger kill, and a good chuckle.


I guess the point is, don't fear the ground, use the ground.  Be one with the ground.

[Changeup]

No I don't mean split-s and run in the typical encounter when many better options are available.  That won't kill the enemy.  I mean when you're at very low altitude, any lower and the split-s will land you six feet under the ground, and there's a faster enemy behind you following through your turns who has you dead to rights.

I'm in a 38 at 1200ish ft, 200ish mph, flaps out and turning in a tight furball, then I see an enemy 38 fixated on my tail at 600 out and closing just a bit.  If I turn left or right, I'm dead.  Go up, I'm very dead.  Go straight, dead.  If I split-s at that altitude I'll recover just below the treetops, hopefully.  I know the enemy 38's closing on me, so he's faster than me.  And that speed advantage means if he tries to follow me through the split-s, he'll have a slightly larger turn radius and end up hitting the trees.  His options are to follow you and auger, or break off the attack and lose his angle advantage.

If he's good, the enemy will follow just long enough to make you commit to your split-s, then he'll do a high yo-yo and be right back on you, though you'll have more room to work with.  They're the minority.

Most enemies start to follow you through the split-s, see they're going to auger, and break off, briefly lose sight, and focus on recovering.  Meanwhile you quickly reverse back into them and shoot 'em.  Most enemies do this.

Then the target fixated, tunnel visioned enemies try to follow and end up giving you an auger kill, and a good chuckle.


I guess the point is, don't fear the ground, use the ground.  Be one with the ground.

Excellent.  Now that Im one with the ground, how do I keep from hitting it?

[FLS]

A fast Zeke....I used a Zeke in the example because YOU brought up turn rates.  The Zeke example is if the Zeke comes into a fight fast.  Most people new in the game will try turn with anything they are within firing range of.  A Zeke dives into a fight a D just won, he's going too fast turn maximize his turn rate, the D is already slow and pops him because the Zeke was too fast and couldn't turn once or twice with him.  It happens everyday in here and it's absolutely counter to what you say is a half-truth.

I'll say it again, only better. 

Don't try to turn with a plane that's significantly slower than you are.  Assume he knows what he's doing and he will outmaneuver you because it's easier to jerk a slow plane around in a smaller airspace than it is to jerk your fast plane around in the same airspace. 

I can't think of one example that this is arguable.  Maybe we are defining knife fight differently I don't know.  To me, it's low and slow and vulnerable.  So, a fast Zeke will make a wider circle than a slow D with his boards out.  If the Zeke tries to use the flat turn its already committed to in order to help slow itself down, it WILL lose because the D made a smaller circle.  If the Zeke decides to figure 8 to slow down AND use its superior turn rate....ding ding ding, we have a winner.  My initial statement assumed you were on the deck or close to it and the faster plane wasn't not going to go vertical.

What I said is half true is simply the statement that the smallest radius wins a knife fight.

A knife fight is a low-E co-E fight where you can't extend without giving your opponent your 6. This thread seems to be more about dogfights in general than knife fights. You're still going to determine flow by your relative strength in rate or radius even if that changes as your speeds vary.

[ink]

No I don't mean split-s and run in the typical encounter when many better options are available.  That won't kill the enemy.  I mean when you're at very low altitude, any lower and the split-s will land you six feet under the ground, and there's a faster enemy behind you following through your turns who has you dead to rights.

I'm in a 38 at 1200ish ft, 200ish mph, flaps out and turning in a tight furball, then I see an enemy 38 fixated on my tail at 600 out and closing just a bit.  If I turn left or right, I'm dead.  Go up, I'm very dead.  Go straight, dead.  If I split-s at that altitude I'll recover just below the treetops, hopefully.  I know the enemy 38's closing on me, so he's faster than me.  And that speed advantage means if he tries to follow me through the split-s, he'll have a slightly larger turn radius and end up hitting the trees.  His options are to follow you and auger, or break off the attack and lose his angle advantage.

If he's good, the enemy will follow just long enough to make you commit to your split-s, then he'll do a high yo-yo and be right back on you, though you'll have more room to work with.  They're the minority.

Most enemies start to follow you through the split-s, see they're going to auger, and break off, briefly lose sight, and focus on recovering.  Meanwhile you quickly reverse back into them and shoot 'em.  Most enemies do this.

Then the target fixated, tunnel visioned enemies try to follow and end up giving you an auger kill, and a good chuckle.


I guess the point is, don't fear the ground, use the ground.  Be one with the ground.

I hear ya....by your description that would be a good time to use it.....I just find 95% of the MA instantly goes into a split S as soon as I get a 6 position....even at 15K 

thats what I was meaning when I said its the "go to" move

[Mace2004]

OK, I'm surprised nobody has mentioned this.  The thread title is "philosophies for surviving knife fights."  If all you're doing is attempting to survive then you've already lost.  The best way to survive is to win and the difference is much more than just being pedantic about words, it's a mindset.  Yes, of course if you're defensive you have to "survive" first but I don't care how I'm being attacked or by what or how defensive I am at the start, I'm always looking to time my evasions and plan my maneuvers such that it turns things to my advantage.  How many times have you attacked someone and had all the advantages and end up getting shot and wondering how the heck did that guy pull that one off?  It's because the other guy isn't just trying to survive.

[Changeup]

OK, I'm surprised nobody has mentioned this.  The thread title is "philosophies for surviving knife fights."  If all you're doing is attempting to survive then you've already lost.  The best way to survive is to win and the difference is much more than just being pedantic about words, it's a mindset.  Yes, of course if you're defensive you have to "survive" first but I don't care how I'm being attacked or by what or how defensive I am at the start, I'm always looking to time my evasions and plan my maneuvers such that it turns things to my advantage.  How many times have you attacked someone and had all the advantages and end up getting shot and wondering how the heck did that guy pull that one off?  It's because the other guy isn't just trying to survive.

Could you summarize?  I believe you are saying to have a mindset to win the fight?  mmmkay...if you didn't already have that, you'd be running, extending.  Just saying.

[Mace2004]

Could you summarize?  I believe you are saying to have a mindset to win the fight?  mmmkay...if you didn't already have that, you'd be running, extending.  Just saying.

By asking how to "survive" a knife fight implies you're in a knife fight that wasn't your idea and running, extending, etc., are pretty much irrelevant. Basically, you're in the situation Boelcke addresses in his second dicta which is to carry through on an attack you've begun.  The point to this is that to accept the mindset to defend and survive a knifefight is far more hazardous than fighting to win since to try to escape means giving your adversary your six and to continue the fight in defense you give up complete control over the fight.  The way I see it is that every attack on me is just an opportunity to kill my adversary which is different than just breaking and trying to escape.  I don't care if I'm being constantly picked at by a K4 or being outturned by a Zeke I'm always looking for ways to induce him to make a mistake.  Here's a quick example.  A guy is diving on you and you have two real options, a split S or a hard level turn.  Which do you do?  If you're only worried about surviving the attack you split-S but that gives you absolutely no opportunity at all to turn the fight to your advantage.  He sees you roll over and he pulls back up to set up another attack while you've just pissed away 1kft of altitude.  On the other hand, you choose the level turn, break into him at 2k, point your wingtip at him at 1.2k as you pull up and roll into him with a barrel roll defense and fire some rounds into him as he overshoots.  See the difference?

[Changeup]

Yes I see the difference.

I should have started the thread with a different title:

Favorite moves you make to avoid dying in a low and slow 1 v 1 when other cons are around

[deadstikmac]

break into him at 2k, point your wingtip at him at 1.2k as you pull up and roll into him with a barrel roll defense and fire some rounds into him as he overshoots.

There is great advice that a great deal of the masses do not know. We call this "how to avoid the HO"

When you see a bandit saddling up on you from 3k out and closing is when this applys. Do Not turn DIRECTLY into him, instead start a gental turn into the bandit so that around 1k he is on a wingtip.

[Gman]

Favorite moves you make to avoid dying in a low and slow 1 v 1 when other cons are around

The goal should be to not get into this position, as it doesn't have a high percentage chance of you coming out alive.  Pete Bonani, that F16 pilot who wrote part of the manuals for Falcon 3 and Falcon 4 back in the day has a video on uTube, the old "Art of the Kill" video from the Falcon 3.0 Gold DVD.  In this video he states that if you get into this type of defensive situation, there really isn't a "move" you can do.  He makes a joke referring to Top Gun, the old hit the brakes and fly right by, but in the real world, all you can do is continue your pull with the enemy on the lift vector and hope he makes a mistake, IF you were dumb/unfortunate enough to end up with an enemy behind you in this type of situation.  Typically in Aces High when I put myself into this situation in your above quote, by being too aggressive and just wanting to kill a few guys, the way I survive is by the enemy making a mistake, typically in gunnery, which allows me to either continue trying to come around on him or reverse my turn/go vertical/whatever, but only after he's missed and overshot.  When the enemy doesn't miss and overshoot, ie does NOT make a mistake,  it results in my dying in this type of situation which you describe in the above quote.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCFMX5z-ed4

If you go to about 33:20 into the video, in the defensive BFM portion, this is what I'm talking about.  If you suddenly see a guy at a range of less than what Mace mentioned, not 2 or 3k, but say 1k, and you're in the above quoted situation, low and slow, or just low E, on the deck, furballing happily away...not much you can do but what I said before, and hope he makes an error and misses, or just damages you, and leaves you intact enough to try and reverse.


I wish Mace and some of the fighter pilots who still fly this game would do a similar video to this for Aces High, or even just write a really good .pdf as to how all the real world stuff relates to fighting in the game.  I would buy it, and I know a lot of new and even older players would too.

[Agent360]

What I said is half true is simply the statement that the smallest radius wins a knife fight.

A knife fight is a low-E co-E fight where you can't extend without giving your opponent your 6. This thread seems to be more about dogfights in general than knife fights. You're still going to determine flow by your relative strength in rate or radius even if that changes as your speeds vary.

FLS is going the right direction here....on point I think with the OP.

Low-E Co-E is what I would call a knife fight....neither can get away without offering a 6 position and most likely a shot in the process....as FLS describes.

If we contrast a Zeek and K4 in this situation it will be he who scissors the best. K4 has power to stall vertically. Zeek can counter with zoom and flat turn....it is a contest of  low yoyo vs high yoyo.

Given two equal pilots the zeek will win 8 out of 10. Given a pilot in a zeek who makes too many mistakes it will be the K4. If the K4 get "too" slow the Zeek will turn easily into guns.

When we introduce altitude to this example it gets more even as the fast plane can use space to maneuver and over power the slower better turning plane. Once trapped on the deck it becomes a bit more difficult. If there is altitude to use for speed then the advantage goes to the faster plane.

[Maniac]

OK, I'm surprised nobody has mentioned this.  The thread title is "philosophies for surviving knife fights."  If all you're doing is attempting to survive then you've already lost.  The best way to survive is to win and the difference is much more than just being pedantic about words, it's a mindset.  Yes, of course if you're defensive you have to "survive" first but I don't care how I'm being attacked or by what or how defensive I am at the start, I'm always looking to time my evasions and plan my maneuvers such that it turns things to my advantage.  How many times have you attacked someone and had all the advantages and end up getting shot and wondering how the heck did that guy pull that one off?  It's because the other guy isn't just trying to survive.

Mace is on the right track imo, the key is to be creative and unpredictable, dare to do stuff out of the box.