Author Topic: Rise of the Drones  (Read 1241 times)

Offline mthrockmor

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2649
Re: Rise of the Drones
« Reply #15 on: January 24, 2013, 12:29:08 PM »
They have been authorized for domestic use. Many cities, counties and state entities (read, police, sheriff and state police/bureaus) are using them. I know there are many in Tennessee. The "creep" of government reach is upon us. This goes to the issues of warrantless searches and seizures. In fact, an appropriation allowed us up to 30,000.

Interesting legal discussion, not political.
No poor dumb bastard wins a war by dying for his country, he wins by making the other poor, dumb, bastard die for his.
George "Blood n Guts" Patton

Offline GScholz

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8910
Re: Rise of the Drones
« Reply #16 on: January 24, 2013, 12:56:15 PM »
Law is the very essence of politics...
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

Offline eagl

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6769
Re: Rise of the Drones
« Reply #17 on: January 24, 2013, 12:57:52 PM »
Drones don't talk back, or refuse an order. They will take pictures, or if weaponed, target whatever and whomever they're tasked to.

Actually, they do talk back and refuse orders.  See, they were built/designed as engineering demonstrations and the AF bought a LOT of them without putting in place a framework to update the hardware, software, and pilot interface to some semblance of military standards.  So while GA has done great work with the USAF in being responsive to urgent operational requirements, the thing still flies like a science fair project.

No ADI.  Seriously.  No "engine gauge cluster", so you have to look at about 5 separate screens of engineering data to do a single ops check, that in a "real" airplane should take less than 5 seconds looking at a single spot on the panel.  The autopilot was designed with airspeed priority, so, lets say your UAV is established in a CAS stack with 10 other aircraft each separated by 1000 ft altitude, and you tell your UAV to accelerate prior to a bomb run, the stupid thing may dive all on its own below its assigned altitude, right through everyone else's altitude, in an attempt to gain airspeed a little faster.  Stupid stupid stupid design, but that's what we bought, and we bought so many so fast that we haven't been able to fix it.  They did modify the parameters where it switches to altitude priority (based on coefficient of lift not speed, so it's still anyone's guess whether it will do a level or diving acceleration) but the autopilot is still based on airspeed.

Mil tactics simply don't work like that.  If I tell the plane to hold a specific altitude and then also tell it to accelerate, I expect it to hold that altitude and do its best to do a level acceleration unless I specifically disable altitude hold and dive it myself.  We build our tactics around the actual performance of the plane, so if a level acceleration doesn't give us the desired results then we modify our tactics instead of building stupidity into the autopilot.  Well, the pred and reaper were not designed that way so they're really hard to fly.

That said, they offer a revolutionary addition to global power projection.  I think that in the history of warfare UAV development will be ranked among the most important mil tech ever, right up there with nukes, hardened steel, and the rifled gun barrel.  The big question in my mind is when will we have the discussion at the national level over what constitutes moral and ethical use of this revolutionary capability.  We are in a war, so the question simply can't be discussed without compromising current operations.  But it's a big topic that we as a nation, and eventually as a community of world powers, need to have.  Flying into the airspace of a nation we are not formally at war with, and using a missile or bomb to kill one individual (or a group, or blowing up a bomb factory, whatever) is simply not something we could do before this.  Now, it happens every day.  At some point we need to work out some rules based on the same kind of moral and ethical standards that have led to restrictions on other specialized weapons.
Everyone I know, goes away, in the end.

Offline Groth

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 565
Re: Rise of the Drones
« Reply #18 on: January 24, 2013, 06:09:35 PM »
 Sooo. a pilot in an airplane seperated by altitude, speed and distance talking back & refusing an order is the same as person across from your desk doing the same...maybe you missed my point.
 At some point we won't even need the person 'piloting' the drone...

Offline rpm

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15661
Re: Rise of the Drones
« Reply #19 on: January 24, 2013, 08:11:00 PM »
...maybe you missed my point.
I think you missed his.
My mind is a raging torrent, flooded with rivulets of thought cascading into a waterfall of creative alternatives.
Stay thirsty my friends.

Offline eagl

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6769
Re: Rise of the Drones
« Reply #20 on: January 24, 2013, 11:09:04 PM »
Sooo. a pilot in an airplane seperated by altitude, speed and distance talking back & refusing an order is the same as person across from your desk doing the same...maybe you missed my point.
 At some point we won't even need the person 'piloting' the drone...


You missed my point entirely.

The drone pilot tells the drone to speed up.  The drone instead dives out of it's assigned and commanded altitude, passes through someone else's assigned altitude.  Maybe it reaches the commanded speed, maybe it wrecks into a mountain.  Maybe the satcom antenna pointing gadget gets confused and it flips everyone off and trundles off for Iran or Russia.  That's what they actually do.  Not joking.  You could have developed a better pilot interface in your sleep at age 5, because at the very least you would have labelled the buttons according to what the button actually does instead of what that button used to do a year or two ago.  It's not even a physical button, it's just a text label on a touch screen, and they still don't match what they say they do.  Double-negatives abound in the tech order and on menu labels.  "If not using this one system, accomplish these steps" instead of "if using this other system then skip these steps", with both ways of wording the option used in the same checklist procedure just to ensure maximum confusion.

Yea, the drones DO disobey orders and talk back.  Because they were designed to behave poorly according to standard military flying procedures.  It is that way because GA never intended to actually sell the things since they were pretty much just engineering development systems with hardly any thought given to the user interface.  10 years later we're still crashing them because of that interface.

I recently asked someone "very important" what the status of making sure the next generation of UAVs had a military standard pilot interface including an autopilot that wasn't designed to intentionally deviate from commanded altitude.  The answer was that the requirements for the next generation are not even developed yet.
Everyone I know, goes away, in the end.

Offline TheMercinary60

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 230
Re: Rise of the Drones
« Reply #21 on: January 25, 2013, 02:58:25 AM »
dont quote me on this but i seem to remember reading or hearing somewhere that states were trying to pass laws that limited the use of drones in their airspace
Formally Merc flying with the 99th Blue Lagoon Bandits
I wish people would use the wish list forum to post their brilliant ideas, and be smart enough to not post all their stupid ones.

But I am under no disillusions of my wish ever being fulfilled.

HiTech - in response to davidwales

Offline Groth

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 565
Re: Rise of the Drones
« Reply #22 on: January 25, 2013, 01:56:19 PM »
 'My point' has absoulutly nothing to do with flight characteristics of drones.

Offline Mar

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2204
Re: Rise of the Drones
« Reply #23 on: January 25, 2013, 03:45:57 PM »
So the drone won't talk back on its way to destroy the target, instead it'll simply crash into a building, or mountain, or another drone, or the ground.
𝒻𝓇𝑜𝓂 𝓉𝒽𝑒 𝓈𝒽𝒶𝒹𝑜𝓌𝓈 𝑜𝒻 𝓌𝒶𝓇'𝓈 𝓅𝒶𝓈𝓉 𝒶 𝒹𝑒𝓂𝑜𝓃 𝑜𝒻 𝓉𝒽𝑒 𝒶𝒾𝓇 𝓇𝒾𝓈𝑒𝓈 𝒻𝓇𝑜𝓂 𝓉𝒽𝑒 𝑔𝓇𝒶𝓋𝑒

  "Onward to the land of kings—via the sky of aces!"
  Oh, and zack1234 rules. :old:

Offline FiLtH

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6448
Re: Rise of the Drones
« Reply #24 on: January 25, 2013, 04:21:08 PM »
   I dont like them flying around over cities. The first one that crashes and kills a bunch will cause a stink. Southern border, ya, need all the help they can get down there.

~AoM~

Offline tassos

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 656
      • Free Warbids Arena
Re: Rise of the Drones
« Reply #25 on: January 25, 2013, 04:35:31 PM »
Dogfight in Drones  :aok
Living Aces High from Sep 1999 as ATZE,MrROX,and from Feb 2000 as tassos
Quit: OPEN /Google:48°58'22.40"N 10°8'15.30"E
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B69CquvLHgY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMCq22Vpa18
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yXsVxFycRZo
Aces High be a part...

Offline BreakingBad

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 271
Re: Rise of the Drones
« Reply #26 on: January 25, 2013, 04:53:52 PM »
Yeah I caught that one, pretty good.

Offline mthrockmor

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2649
Re: Rise of the Drones
« Reply #27 on: January 25, 2013, 05:45:56 PM »
See Rule #14
« Last Edit: January 28, 2013, 09:14:41 AM by Skuzzy »
No poor dumb bastard wins a war by dying for his country, he wins by making the other poor, dumb, bastard die for his.
George "Blood n Guts" Patton

Offline GScholz

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8910
Re: Rise of the Drones
« Reply #28 on: January 25, 2013, 06:25:08 PM »
I'm not 100% up to speed on US laws, but as far as I know no one have any rights to privacy in a public place, like streets, roads, wilderness etc. However, if these drones start peeking into your living room...
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

Offline mthrockmor

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2649
Re: Rise of the Drones
« Reply #29 on: January 25, 2013, 07:37:21 PM »
You certainly have certain aspects of privacy in public places. It is called "probably cause" and before a cop can infringe they must have a compelling reason. They cannot simply just walk up and demand, unless they do. And if challenged, and probably cause is not found than any evidence found is inadmissable in a court of law and any charges brought against the person must be dismissed.

This is the legal framework.
No poor dumb bastard wins a war by dying for his country, he wins by making the other poor, dumb, bastard die for his.
George "Blood n Guts" Patton