Will HTC follow the trend?

[Kieran]

 

<shrug> I guess I should have used less syllable's in my post and spaced my wording so small little fingers could follow it as they read it

Totally uncalled for, Revvin.

I make a post showing one of the concerns of user-end-only art, not stating that it can't be done, only showing what could be done if proper precautions aren't taken. I totally understand how the skins get readied and used online, that the checks are made, and that versions better match up.

If anyone needs to read a little slower, it is you, "m8". If you don't want discussion just say so, maybe we can even get a "Revvin Pontificates" forum set up for you...

[Fishu]

Why would people be allowed to edit cockpit graphics?
I don't see any point that..  all we want is just skin over the plane, for others to see, right?

Besides, you could already probably do that same with some ages old video drivers..
I remember when I first time got voodoo 1 and it had some ages old drivers and warbirds 3D didn't quite like it - I saw only instrument gauges, but otherwise through the plane.
thats one good example.

(no, I didn't cheat.. I went to get new drivers when I realised that it might be good choice.. and well.. not much good to run 3D with 5 FPS either)

[Revvin]

Jedi> BINGO! Thank you! that was what I was trying to say

AKSeaWulfe> "futz around with his own FE" yes but any "futzing round" (nice expression   ) with his FE would not allow him to pass the normal server security check so he would not be able to log on, or would and then get immediatley booted and possibly banned..not the actions of the casual Aces High player spending $30 a month to play. The update could come in the form of an encrypted file format that is not readable by normal applications, no .tif, .gif's or anything just one encrypted file, or better still HTC regulaly gives us updates, why not hold skins and include them in the new version or if the file size got too big an option of two updates packages, one with skins and one without that way when new planes come along the guys that like to fly one particular plane (yes I'm looking at yo the Pony Mafia   ) they would still have something extra to look forward to such as a 'Tuskegee Airmen' skin and so on,might just take the sting out of seeing the Luftwaffe get another plane in AH  

Kieran> OK so I might be advised not to post when arguing with the missus but your post took the whole debate out of context and only served to scare monger, what we were talking about was encrypted file updates and what you did was take a screenshot off the HTC web-site, alter it and then say how easy it would be to cheat! it would not! what you did in now way shape or form proved that tha facility to 'skin' your plane would create more cheats, if you're going to post then please follow the thread and read it through and not make some ad-hock example that bears no resemblance to the discussion taking place. Besides I'm more than capable of holding my own in a discussion without needing my own forum, but thanks for your concern  

I think the thread title covers the  worries about cheating "Will HTC follow the trend?" in other words other sims ARE doing this, Warbirds and Target Korea so they have obviously considered their stance on player art and looked at every angle of this feature before commiting their business to using utilising this feature, it CAN be done and they ARE doing it. This discussion has turned into worries over cheating rather than discuss how many of us actually would like the feature...it can work and there are others making this feature available, so with one last attempt I'll try and get back on topic...Will HTC follow the trend?....should he?

[sky_bax]

What Jedi said.

Customized skins done properly only enhance the sim, no more of a risk than what you have currently.

And you will find that alot of the guys doing these are hardcore about accuracy. IMO the player skins are nicer than the developers because the can put the extra time & effort into them.

A few examples:

 http://www.xaerostrike.homestead.com/index.html

 http://furball.dogfighter.com/wbiiipaint/index.html

And I can tell you from reading the Paint Forum many hours go into research on correct colors, letters, numbers, and so on.

Even myself, I am one of 5 people to recieve the P-51 early before being released to the public for demo reasons. It has taken me and several 352nd FG historians 8 weeks of research to find the correct original color blues that the "Blue Nosed Bastards" painted their P-51Bs & P-51Ds noses with.

How many sims you think are out there that go to that level of accuracy on their skins? None. Dedicated players do.

It`s all good.

Skybax
328th Fighter Squadron
352nd Fighter Group.com

"Blue Nosed Bastards of Bodney"

[This message has been edited by sky_bax (edited 03-07-2001).]

[AKSeaWulfe]

mmmmmm Fighting 99th paint job on a Pony... I might actually fly one then. Ooooo and we're just getting the P51B next version too. Damn, I wish they did the P51B in the 99th's colors. (Tuskegee Airmen)

So long as the files can not be hacked or edited, then it sounds good to me. As long as HTC approves them and tests them, then includes them in a monthly(or bi-weekly?) update it could be good.

I'd really like to redo the La5's paint, and do a REAL paint job for the 190F8.. (they had a solid tone color with squiggly lines randomly placed over it).

It would be cool, as long as it's done properly.
-SW

[jihad]

now I challenge you to use that cockpit online..go on m8 if it really is that easy, tell you what I don't want to see you waste your time because you just won't be able to do it...why?

You won't want to do it, I discovered by accident an older NVidea driver that when tweaked a certain way will give you a "wonder woman" 6 and 12 view.

It's damn hard to fly without the points of reference the cockpit gives you.

[Kieran]

Revvin-

Really hard to turn the other cheek this time... think I'll let you have your own "discussions" in the future.

[Revvin]

Kieran> Whats your problem? you try to scare monger by making an example bearing no resemblance to anything discussed in the topic and now you want to try and make up some kind of petty animosity and further take the discussion further from the topic it started as?

The challenge still stands if you want to accept it..use that cockpit image you made above online and prove you can cheat, you'd be doing us all a favour if you could by pointing out a hole in HTC's security so he could close it but I'm sure you won't be able to do it as I'm sure you would not be able to do if HTC allowed us to submit skins and controlled them in the ways outlined above by the other guys posting.

You can't get away from it..the bottom line is skins will work and other sims producers are laying their business down as a stake to prove it and they will not have done this without looking at all the pro's and con's and possible ways cheats could exploit it and they are sure enough to implement skins, they are using skins so will HTC follow the trend and let the community have a tool that could add alot to Aces High with a little initial work. Please try and stay on topic, this is not about cheating as its not an issue to two other sims that will be using this feature..would you like to see it in Aces High?

[This message has been edited by Revvin (edited 03-07-2001).]

[Kieran]

My "problem" is that you didn't bother to read what I posted. If you had you would note that I only advocated a cautious approach. If you read some of the other responses prior to my post (containing the picture) you would see there was a group of people discussing having custom art that would only appear on their end. They seemed (to me) to be saying "what I see on my end is my business". My picture was meant to illustrate why that cannot be allowed to go unregulated. You see, I was in fact supporting your argument.

Instead of reading it that way you unloaded a bunch of sarcasm laced insults at my intelligence. My "problem" is that, even if you had been right in your interpretation of the intent of my post (which you weren't) you took a vicious method to respond to it. You say you can hold your own in a debate- if that is what you call a debate, I guess you are right.

BTW, I never, EVER said I could, would, or should use the picture I made online. You my friend are reading into my statement whatever it is you want. I simply pointed out a concern that any developer might have with allowing custom skins- now please tell me why I am so stupid to make that assumption? Once again I will say to you I am quite aware that the host server checks the graphics used, and that mismatches are flagged.

You have misread me from the very start and are trying to portray me as saying something I most certainly didn't. That is what my "problem" is.

 

Should players be able to paint any aircraft in the game any color? I can think of reasons why this should not be allowed.

-AKDejaVu

This line got me to thinking "I can think of a perfect example".

 

Years ago, there was a Mac sim called SkyFighters that allowed individual paint jobs. Nash used to fly this cloud/sky colored aircraft that was very difficult to see. He's very talented at ACM (as some are aware). Being near invisible just made it that much more difficult.

-Sandman

Another good quote to follow. Notice he wasn't exactly against using the skins, just noting one of the problems he's seen.

 

Also, players should NOT be allowed to paint OTHER players planes on their own FE. That would lead to outright cheating by having all the other planes painted bright pink or neon green so you can shoot them easier.

-Tac

Another valid point. Notice he didn't say that a person could get away with this, he said it is something he wouldn't want to see- neither would I.

 

As far as the coloring, if I want to have my P-38 seen black or pink or red by everyone else, that is MY choice. What I dont want players to be allowed to do is set how they see other's plane's camo/skins in their FE.

-Tac

Completely against this one. Of course this gets taken care of by HTC, but it is still in the category of something disruptive a player can potentially do.

AKDejaVu hit it squarely when he suggested there were two lines of comments here; those that related to skins for everyone, those that related to personal aircraft. They both can be fairly rolled into the ball of "user contributed art". Within that context, and considering the above quotes, I don't believe my posts, any of them, were out of line.

Finally, you came in here with a chip on your shoulder I believe. You were looking for trouble- I was just silly enough to think perhaps you wanted to discuss the matter thoroughly, not simply lead us down the path to the conclusion you had already drawn before you arrived here.

[This message has been edited by Kieran (edited 03-07-2001).]

[Kieran]

 

Kieran> Whats your problem? you try to scare monger by making an example bearing no resemblance to anything discussed in the topic and now you want to try and make up some kind of petty animosity and further take the discussion further from the topic it started as?

Really? Who posted this line?

 

<shrug> I guess I should have used less syllable's in my post and spaced my wording so small little fingers could follow it as they read it

As your post was directed at me, I take that as a direct insult. I guess I am petty for being offended by it, too.

[Fidd]

This is clearly an emotive topic. Take a look at:
 http://www3.mistral.co.uk/mthuff/index.html  

to see what has been possible in the past with other games. This is not an attempt to flag-wave for AW3, but rather to show what is at least possible with that game - with the co-operation of the games developers. (IE not making the FE graphics encrypted)

These points are important to the issue:

1. Skins setting *has* to be done at the FE end, and would involve each player seeing different skins on the same aircraft.

2. Previous experience (with AW3) shows that the vast majority of player generated skins are historically accurate, rather than "neon" high visibilty, and in fact "neon" skins gave little or no combat advantage. Provided that the player generated skins are made freely available (as we did with AW3) then there's no reason for anyone to "suffer" from low visibilty default skins, when there's a whole range of differnt historical skins, and terrains, to choose from.

2. It keeps the game fresh, and stimulates a whole cottage industry in skins painting, which can offer a creative outlet within the community for people whose ACM is perhaps average.

3. It is almost certainly possible for the version checking software that AH uses to selectively check. In other words, to avoid checking "skins" in order that player generated content may be used.

4. All this hinges on whether "glass-cockpits" - like the yak pciture above, can be disallowed in some way, so that no player can obtain an unfair advantage by adding transparent or transluscent windows in his cockpit where none exists on the default art.

I'm a firm believer that variety is good, and there's only so far that new aircraft can take a game, ultimatly there needs to be visual variety and "customisabilty" for it to survive in the long term.

Regards, Fidd

[Replicant]

I would dearly love to see a choice of skins available for the planeset.  Taking the Spitfire alone, imagine how many people would be happy to have a more personalised country aircraft (French, Canadian, Australian etc...).

I honestly don't see a problem with having different skins available purely because the noseart has to be submitted to HTC, so surely the skins would have to meet a certain criteria and then personally okay'd by HTC.  I am sure we would all trust HTC to choose the best skins submitted - I know some of you guys are experts at this sort of thing!  

Finally, make the skins an optional download where they are updated on a monthly basis.  Have a base download, and then after that just have patches for each individual month.  Surely this would save on download times for those concerned with that aspect.

Just my pennies worth.

Regards

Nexx

[Jigster]

Btw HTC could encode approved skins just as they already do to their own front end.

As previously stated, if you could hack that without getting caught, then you could hack right now without getting caught.

- Bess

[Seeker]

I think it's agreed that historicasly correct skins can only enhance a scenario, but there remains concern that a player would wish to fly a pink P51.

Why is this? While the MA can be immersive, it's by no means historical, and it seems a bit far fetched to demand that both the Spit atacking your Lanc and the Lanc it's self should bear historicaly stock paint schemes.

On the Other hand we're all aware of historical figures that did, in fact fly the eqivalent of the pink P51, such as Richtofen, so an historical argument can well be made for the principle of the pink P51......

In the long run, what happens in the MA is irrelevant 'cos, well, it's the MA.

What happens in a Scenario should be tightly controled by the CM's. Re-skinning of AC can help a long way towards covering missing planes in the plane set for a given battle.

The only real issue is that of a level playing field, the issue of glass cockpits. I think this an unlikely problem given that the cockpits in AH are generated by the 3D engine, there's no textures to be manipulated.

[straffo]

I can't get why "pink" skin should be banned ...
If we still have a the standard icon even a blinking skin won't denouce you as quickly as the icon.