Author Topic: Help, something I just can't improve on!  (Read 5010 times)

Offline Randy1

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Re: Help, something I just can't improve on!
« Reply #30 on: February 17, 2013, 04:49:19 PM »
A 190 got me this afternoon from a perch.  I had an eye on him and at 2.5 K i felt good I had the situation in hand.  Scanned the instruments then thought of this thread and hesitated to make my move.  Tower view. Man, those things can dive fast.

Great thread, but I need to take it to offline practice to get this  :old: brain acclimated.

Offline Hopper

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Re: Help, something I just can't improve on!
« Reply #31 on: February 17, 2013, 05:45:24 PM »
When you have somebody as experienced at it as BigR, it generally doesn't work.  He's been around a long, long time, and can identify the moves as you start them.

1v1 you can focus on your opponent and adjust, even 2v1.  3v1 I can't. 
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Offline katanaso

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Re: Help, something I just can't improve on!
« Reply #32 on: February 17, 2013, 07:56:46 PM »
1v1 you can focus on your opponent and adjust, even 2v1.  3v1 I can't. 

I understand.  I was only trying to point out that the person who stayed with you is somebody that can stay with any of us, so if it was a person with lesser knowledge, you might've had all 3 overshoot. :)
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Offline Latrobe

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Re: Help, something I just can't improve on!
« Reply #33 on: February 18, 2013, 07:15:57 AM »
I just can't seem to get it just right. I'm almost certain I have horrible E judgement, so does anyone have any tips of how to judge someone's E? Or is it really one of those things that you just have to get good at over time? (like gunnery)


When they give you room to grab, grab at your best corner speed away from them.

Also, I am having a heck of a hard time understanding the concept of this. No idea why, I just can't seem to understand why I want to fly away from the red planes.

Sorry if I'm giving you guys a headache with my stupid questions. My idiocy is greater than even I can imagine, and I am very incapable of learning anything quickly.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2013, 07:41:55 AM by Latrobe »

Offline Mace2004

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Re: Help, something I just can't improve on!
« Reply #34 on: February 18, 2013, 08:42:17 AM »
I just can't seem to get it just right. I'm almost certain I have horrible E judgement, so does anyone have any tips of how to judge someone's E? Or is it really one of those things that you just have to get good at over time? (like gunnery)


Also, I am having a heck of a hard time understanding the concept of this. No idea why, I just can't seem to understand why I want to fly away from the red planes.

Sorry if I'm giving you guys a headache with my stupid questions. My idiocy is greater than even I can imagine, and I am very incapable of learning anything quickly.
Precise E State is hard and takes lots of practice but it's pretty easy to get a general idea.   The first way is simple, what kind of plane is it?  Generally speaking for instance, we know that Pony's fight fast and Hurricanes fight slow but then there are airplanes that bleed lots of airspeed (Typhoon) when maneuvering and those that don't (P38, Spit, Zeke) also. 

Then, there's just watching him.  Where was he (above or below you) when you first spotted him? How fast does it look like he's going?  What is the rate of closure (or opening)?  There are other clues as well.  When you pass close is his engine loud or quiet (is he at mil or idle)?  Does he have any flaps down? (For most planes flaps down means <150mph).  Does he extend often to rebuild E?

Then there are maneuvers.  How high are his vertical moves?  How quickly does he turn? (Remember that all planes turn best at corner which ranges from 200 to 260).  Does he spend a lot of time nose down and extending?  All of these will give you easy clues as to his speed.  Also, vertical maneuvers tell you a whole lot about his E.  For a good vertical maneuver 300mph is a good number.  You can certainly do it slower but then you'll get very slow at the top.  So, if the guy goes vertical and just does a loop with no drama or hang time at the top he's at least  300mph at the bottom but, if he kinda hangs at the top or does a rudder reversal expect him to be about 200 at the bottom. Of course, remember that these numbers will vary according to the type of plane you're fighting and I'm talking about actual loops, not vertical extensions (ropes) where everyone will get slow.  Then there are the more obvious situations like where he just can't get his nose up enough to shoot you or is stuck in lag.

There's another method that's less well understood and that's conversion of NRG to angles.  Say you're both in Pony's and you make a typical high speed nose-to-nose merge and you decide to stay at or above corner.  On the second merge you see he's got 30 degrees of angles on you and on the third merge he's got 60.  Those angles have to come from somewhere and that's him converting E to angles. He may have a bit of a bite on you but you're still flying at corner (about 260) while you know he's below (probably about 150-200) so now, on the next merge you negate his angles by switching to a vertical fight and covert your extra E into an altitude positional advantage.
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Offline Nath[BDP]

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Re: Help, something I just can't improve on!
« Reply #35 on: February 18, 2013, 08:48:00 AM »
I watched the four films you posted, and briefly I will state that in a defensive situation your main goal is:

1)  Close the angle so you force the enemy as close to you as possible while at the same time making him think he has a gun solution on you, but denying it by a few degrees.  Usually I will maneuver so as he thinks he has the shot, but at the moment he pulls lead I will quickly roll out of his line of fire and start setting up for his passing below and behind me.  He will often start going back up, which is where I usually land a shot.  

This has a twofold effect, one it allows you a better opportunity in landing the overshoot kill because he's closer, and two it will most likely make him commit more aggressively if he thinks he's got a shot, thereby slowly bleeding both his positive and potential energy states.  

In your films you show no regard towards "suckering him in" -- forcing a move on his part so you can turn the tables.

Kind of difficult for me to verbalize.  Here's a recent film I put together of a bunch of different fights.  Quality isn't great but it's just for my own amusement... the first section is against 3 K4s.  

P.S. I noticed you tend to hold the trigger down for awhile.  I only shoot in 3-6 round bursts with 30mm at max.  If your first aimed shot doesn't hit, nothing more will.

http://youtu.be/frar8uSpB1M

this one might be instructive also (plus its also hilarious to hear JAXXO narrate the thing):

http://youtu.be/kWWrpW4n_To
« Last Edit: February 18, 2013, 08:50:43 AM by Nath[BDP] »
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Offline Nath[BDP]

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Re: Help, something I just can't improve on!
« Reply #36 on: February 18, 2013, 09:07:06 AM »
When you have somebody as experienced at it as BigR, it generally doesn't work.  He's been around a long, long time, and can identify the moves as you start them.

mir is correct.  the experience of your foe is key.  I usually die when I'm trying to get an experienced stick to commit, but because I'm oblivious to their skill level most of the time, I will maneuver in a less-than-aggressive fashion in order to "lure" them in -- a newbie will more likely commit if he sees me maneuvering in a lazy, haphazard way.  I pay for this because the experienced stick will slow down and render my setup moot.  Had I known who I was fighting, I could have closed the angles more and not given him as much space to saddle up -- possibly winning the fight but definitely prolonging it more than situation 1. 
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Offline lulu

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Re: Help, something I just can't improve on!
« Reply #37 on: February 18, 2013, 09:08:44 AM »
Latrobe,

If I understood the problem, there is nothing that you can do except to improve your internet connection.



 :salute
mobilis in mobile

Offline Latrobe

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Re: Help, something I just can't improve on!
« Reply #38 on: February 18, 2013, 09:25:13 AM »
Most of those methods I recognize Mace, and use in the MA. I guess I just suck at it and need to practice more. I think I pay more attention to the angles than the E.


Those videos were great to watch Nath! Definitely saw something I was doing wrong. I'm not the best at the "suckering them in" way. My flying style has always been to avoid the shot and then work my way onto their 6.
I hold the trigger down a while because I can never aim the 30mm on the K4. I feel better wasting a few rounds if I can get a hit since I can't "snipe" them with 2-3 rounds like you tater marksmen.

In the fight against the K4's I noticed when you pointed your wing at them they were more at your 8 or even 7 o'clock postion. In my fights I put them at my 9-10 o'clock position to make the angle as extreme as possible. I'm guessing that's how you get to roll back into them for a perfect shot chance while I'm pulling onto their 6 at 600 yards or more.


( :rofl at JAXXO, that was hilarious!)

Offline Latrobe

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Re: Help, something I just can't improve on!
« Reply #39 on: February 18, 2013, 09:26:19 AM »
Latrobe,

If I understood the problem, there is nothing that you can do except to improve your internet connection.



 :salute

Oh God! That won't be for another 20 years!  :uhoh :(

Offline Mace2004

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Re: Help, something I just can't improve on!
« Reply #40 on: February 18, 2013, 09:34:38 AM »
Also, I am having a heck of a hard time understanding the concept of this. No idea why, I just can't seem to understand why I want to fly away from the red planes.

I forgot to answer why you fly away from red planes:  In the real world this is called an extension/pitchback fight and is very common (or was very, very common in the F-14 community).  Most modern RL fights are E fights so you tend to do one of two things, maximum performance turns (at corner velocity) linked by straight-line extensions for separation and E.  You're basically alternating between two maximum performance parameters; best turns and best acceleration. Any time you're not doing one or the other (at least until you have the advantage) is wasting time and E.  Airplanes accelerate best when they're not turning and are unloaded to zero G to minimize drag.  That means a straight line with the nose being pushed down will give you more speed quicker than anything else at the expense of a bit of altitude.  Once you reach your target speed (I usually look for corner up to 300mph) you pull the nose up and start an easy climb to regain the altitude you traded and begin to store that E then do a wingover (the pitchback) and return.  

On the other hand, the effectiveness of an extension pitchback depends on how fast you already are, how quickly you can accelerate and what your adversary's plane, NRG state, and position are.  The idea is to put as much distance between the two of you as you can while his nose is pointed away from you and then do your pitchback as his nose comes on.  Think of it this way.  The two of you pass 180 out.  You extend building E while he's burning E doing a 180deg turn to follow you.  This is why you want to pitchback as his nose begins to point at you, you want him to keep turning and burning E while denying him the ability to build E in a straight line while you've already gained E and did a high-speed pitchback that was more efficient and quicker than his low E turn.  If you do this right then you'll be making a series of straight line passes while he's turning small circles to face you.  

Another reason for the extension relates to multi-bandit fights.  The worst situation for you is when multiple bandits are attacking you from different directions at the same time.  A defense against one attack turns your six to another so, you want to do two things.  First, isolate the threat sector.  There are several ways to do this but one of the easiest is to extend away to position all of the bandits in the same piece of sky which minimizes the possible directions of attack.  The other you have less control of but you want to get them attacking you in phase, that means two airplanes attacking from the same direction in the same plane of motion.  This makes a defense against one a defense against both.  Obviously, you cannot force your adversaries to do this but you can encourage it by being intentionally "predictable".  

Here's a grossly oversimplified example. You're in a fight against two adversaries with more E than you have so you turn to pass between them and extend away from them building E while both noses are off you.  They see you're extending and think you're trying to escape so they pull hard to come nose on but they're now coming from the same direction, your rear quarter, so you've isolated the threat sector. You now start an easy left turn and they do the same because they both think they're going to get shots on you.  This puts them in phase (both are in your rear quarter in an easy left turn and getting closer and closer together as they run you down) and they're probably overconfident (hey, it's 2v1 and they're on your six, what could go wrong?)  They're essentially now in a race to see who gets to you first for the kill but at the last moment you use the E you've built to break into them and do a BRD.  Since they're in phase they are both presented with the same defense, both overshoot and your BRD is used to convert a 2v1 into a 1v1.  Of course, I have to caveat this example.  It's not a magic tactic that'll always work because there are just too many variables.  How much E difference is there, how maneuverable are they, how far and fast did you get in your extension?  The point is that you need to isolate the threat and get them in phase to make your defense much easier.  BTW, if they're in phase and together, at attack by you on one of them can easily become an attack on both.  I like to appear to be committed to attacking one and then, at the last second, switch to the second who doesn't feel threatened and may be repositioning to attack you if you continue to press your attack on his wingman.  It'll quite often catch them by surprise.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2013, 09:40:58 AM by Mace2004 »
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Offline Nath[BDP]

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Re: Help, something I just can't improve on!
« Reply #41 on: February 18, 2013, 09:46:44 AM »


In the fight against the K4's I noticed when you pointed your wing at them they were more at your 8 or even 7 o'clock postion. In my fights I put them at my 9-10 o'clock position to make the angle as extreme as possible. I'm guessing that's how you get to roll back into them for a perfect shot chance while I'm pulling onto their 6 at 600 yards or more.


( :rofl at JAXXO, that was hilarious!)

Yeah, good point.  Perhaps I'm not closing the angle as much as I say, but then again it's dependent on the situation.  The last part of that clip in the 109F4 against Squat's F4U, he's between 8 and 9 o'clock, and I sort of "jink" out of his guns and setup for the overshoot.  But he's at least 100mph faster than me at that point.  Had he been coming in slower, I would have probably put him closer to your 9-10 o'clock, in order to 1) increase the difficulty of his shot 2) decrease the likelihood of him saddling up on my six and 3) giving me more of an acute angle to reverse on him with.  

I'd be down to experiment in the DA/TA with this kinda stuff.  I appreciate your aggressive attitude -- I've always argued for that type of flying since I find it the most exciting, rewarding, and it yields the most educational benefit.  
« Last Edit: February 18, 2013, 09:51:48 AM by Nath[BDP] »
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Offline Mace2004

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Re: Help, something I just can't improve on!
« Reply #42 on: February 18, 2013, 09:55:16 AM »
In the fight against the K4's I noticed when you pointed your wing at them they were more at your 8 or even 7 o'clock postion. In my fights I put them at my 9-10 o'clock position to make the angle as extreme as possible. I'm guessing that's how you get to roll back into them for a perfect shot chance while I'm pulling onto their 6 at 600 yards or more.

How much angle off you have also plays into how aggressive you want to be just like timing and maneuvering "just in time."  In the case of angle off, the less you have the riskier it is because you've got less line of sight rates and aren't creating as much of a geometry problem.  At the same time though, it's much easier to do a very tight defense and end up nose on on the attacker's six.  The most aggressive style means accepting more risk and relying on "just enough" to get the job done.
Mace
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Offline Latrobe

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Re: Help, something I just can't improve on!
« Reply #43 on: February 18, 2013, 10:37:04 AM »
The two of you pass 180 out.  You extend building E while he's burning E doing a 180deg turn to follow you.  This is why you want to pitchback as his nose begins to point at you, you want him to keep turning and burning E while denying him the ability to build E in a straight line while you've already gained E and did a high-speed pitchback that was more efficient and quicker than his low E turn.  If you do this right then you'll be making a series of straight line passes while he's turning small circles to face you.  

This is something I had not thought of before. So simple yet so effective to keep the E advantage!


Yeah, good point.  Perhaps I'm not closing the angle as much as I say, but then again it's dependent on the situation.  The last part of that clip in the 109F4 against Squat's F4U, he's between 8 and 9 o'clock, and I sort of "jink" out of his guns and setup for the overshoot.  But he's at least 100mph faster than me at that point.  Had he been coming in slower, I would have probably put him closer to your 9-10 o'clock, in order to 1) increase the difficulty of his shot 2) decrease the likelihood of him saddling up on my six and 3) giving me more of an acute angle to reverse on him with.  

I'd be down to experiment in the DA/TA with this kinda stuff.  I appreciate your aggressive attitude -- I've always argued for that type of flying since I find it the most exciting, rewarding, and it yields the most educational benefit.  

This gets me thinking. If my opponent is a P51 coming in for a diving pass at 400+mph and I am cruising at 250, then putting him in my 7-8 o'clock area would be best since he will be going way too fast to saddle up on my 6 and I can get a good shot on the overshoot because of the smaller angle I created (the "just enough to avoid" method).

But, if my opponent is in a slower bird (lets say an A6M) then trying the same thing of putting him in my 7-8 o'clock area is a horrible idea. With his slower speed approach he can bleed E off easier and quicker to get onto my 6. So what I would want to do is put him in my 9-10 o'clock area, making a more difficult shot for him, and just focus on avoiding the attack instead of trying to set up my own.


Is this right? Am I inside the ballpark?

----------------------------
Edit
So, I think I pulled off the BRD a bit more affectingly. In this fight against a Spit on the first pass my angle was too great to get a shot on him, but I was also avoiding an La at the time as well. The 2nd pass I think he knew he was going to fly into my guns and reversed his turn using his speed to climb away from me. The 3rd pass I think I pulled off almost perfect. I saw he pulled a full loop over the top, and from what I learned from Mace I knew the spit was at least above his stall speed. I attempt to create a smaller angle and get a perfect shot in the overshoot, but my terrible gunnery skills allow him to survive. The 4th pass is just about a repeat of the previous one and once again my gunnery skills is the only thing that lets him live. The final pass I see he doesn't climb as high as he has been so I create a much great angle this time so he doesn't get inside my turn and saddle up on my 6. I think I would have gotten a good shot on him again but a friendly finish him before I get the chance to miss a 3rd time  :)

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« Last Edit: February 18, 2013, 11:27:43 AM by Latrobe »

Offline Babalonian

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Re: Help, something I just can't improve on!
« Reply #44 on: February 18, 2013, 11:32:01 AM »
Barrel Roll Defense

downloading films, but seems Mace has helped ya find something, and Fugitive as well.... gotta love this community ... it  :rock s

TC

It's something he's touched on a couple time before in other threads and posts.  TC (you) or Rolex gave me my first dose of understanding it during I think a BFM clinic a couple years ago.  It seems (very) counterintuitive, and I don't want to over-stupify it, but a "wider" (as wide as possible) and "not-fast-rolling but not too-slow-rolling either" BR is vastly more effective in a given defensive situation than simpley heaving the stick over and trying to complete a BR as quickly/sharply/narrowly as possible (what you're tendancy is to do with most other defensive maneuvers).

I use the BRD (and offensively) constantly in the 190s, and have even used it with success in keeping my last RTBing heavy buff from becoming rocket food after loosing the first two.



Wow, there's a lot to catch up on in this thread now.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2013, 12:13:22 PM by Babalonian »
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Wow, you guys need help.