Help, something I just can't improve on!

[Babalonian]

Barrel Roll Defense

downloading films, but seems Mace has helped ya find something, and Fugitive as well.... gotta love this community ... it  s

TC

It's something he's touched on a couple time before in other threads and posts.  TC (you) or Rolex gave me my first dose of understanding it during I think a BFM clinic a couple years ago.  It seems (very) counterintuitive, and I don't want to over-stupify it, but a "wider" (as wide as possible) and "not-fast-rolling but not too-slow-rolling either" BR is vastly more effective in a given defensive situation than simpley heaving the stick over and trying to complete a BR as quickly/sharply/narrowly as possible (what you're tendancy is to do with most other defensive maneuvers).

I use the BRD (and offensively) constantly in the 190s, and have even used it with success in keeping my last RTBing heavy buff from becoming rocket food after loosing the first two.



Wow, there's a lot to catch up on in this thread now.

[Babalonian]

A 190 got me this afternoon from a perch.  I had an eye on him and at 2.5 K i felt good I had the situation in hand.  Scanned the instruments then thought of this thread and hesitated to make my move.  Tower view. Man, those things can dive fast.

Great thread, but I need to take it to offline practice to get this  brain acclimated.

  

Especialy if he's circling and obviously "on perch", don't take your eye off them for more than a second.

[Gman]

I've always argued for that type of flying since I find it the most exciting, rewarding, and it yields the most educational benefit.   

I think Nath sums up everything great about this thread in one sentence.  I can't believe how much great info is coming out in this threat, without any BS arguments like always seem to happen here.  This should be thread of the year, and stand as an example of how asking for help without any attitude, even from a super pilot like Latrobe, can benefit not just the OP but everyone in the game. 

I'd really REALLY appreciate it if one of the trainers or somebody like Mace or Nath would volunteer for a night in the DA for a few hours to put a lot of this into practice while talking it through on VOX, as there is no better way for adult learning to take hold than to actually do it, and repeat it many times under the eye of an expert instructor.  I know I've always flown really aggressively, even without a lot of official training, and I've done it that way since 1999, but as I said, I WANT to be able to do it the proper way, and not just really on the aggression alone getting me through, but to channel it into a perfect symphony of angles, energy, and geometry.  Mace, I said it before, but you truly should write a book about this stuff for modern online air combat.  It may not be a huge seller, but I personally would be willing to financially back a start up for this.  Your expertise is very rare, and since Eagl doesn't play the game as you do any more, I think you're the only real fighter pilot in this game, and the way you can professionally describe a2a scenarios, your experience, etc is a resource that can't be quantified. 

Anyhow, as I was saying, I really want to be able to fly like the "greats" of the game, and be able to do a lot of these things to the point that they are second nature, without having to think about it, and that means a lot of reps.  I haven't flown FSO for a while, but last year I made top pilots list every time I did, and even top pilot in one event so far as kills go.  I know I'm good in a gamey sort of way, and that's just from experience and seizing opportunities and flying aggressively, but if I end up 1v1 vs a Nath, a Bruv, or an Ink, I'm going to lose, and lose badly, like as in maybe 1/10 or 2/10 at best.  I ran into one of the games best pilots in a P51 in the last scenario, and I ended up in a scissors in a K4 vs him that went back and forth for about a minute, and I lost.  This to me is unacceptable, as I can admit that stats vs the MA or FSO mean nothing in terms of knowledge and capability to apply it properly in a2a engagements.   My goal is to be able to contend with the likes of them.

[Latrobe]

I WANT to be able to do it the proper way, and not just really on the aggression alone getting me through, but to channel it into a perfect symphony of angles, energy, and geometry.

This is exactly what I'm looking for now too. I enjoy flying really aggressive and just overpowering my opponent with tight turns, tail slides, and snap shots forcing him to make a mistake so I can get on his 6. But now I want to learn the smoother way of fighting, or as you put it "a perfect symphony of angles, energy, and geometry". Just like when I first started learning how to dogfight, I took the TnB route and loved the turn fights. Then I decided I needed to learn how to fly the BnZ style. It's not my favorite way of flying, but learning how to fight this way gave me more weapons to use in a fight. Plus, I can better counter this kind of fighting as well. Now I'm at that point again where I know how to fight aggressively, but I want to learn how to fight smoothly as well. After I've learned how to and master it I'll have even MORE weapons at my disposal during a fight, and I can counter smooth flying players even better.


The advice from this thread is amazing. I feel like my flying is improving again, which I haven't seen happen in a long time. Thanks for the awesome help everyone! 

[Mace2004]

Appreciate the comments Gman and Latrobe, I'm happy if the discussions, even some of the ones that get a bit heated, help people out.  I usually don't mind the heated arguments but it is sometimes a bit frustrating when someone has some misconception and then continually argues for their point of view regardless of how much information is provided to prove them wrong.  What's the guy's name who took a few anecdotal remarks and convinced himself that HiTech did his "maths" for his flight models all wrong? The guy was hilarious, had no concept of physics or aerodynamics, and was fortunently a bit of an outlier as the majority here want to really learn and improve.  

To give real credit where credit is due we all need to compliment HiTech on the flight model as it's the most representative simulation I've ever seen and without it, few of these discussions are worthwhile.  It's really the part of AH that makes the sim so intriguing and is by far the most important aspect (well, to me anyway). What's the use of explaining an NRG fight to someone when they're flying a flight model that doesn't include induced drag or accelerated stalls and departures?  Also, I'm continually amazed at the amount of information and skills that the community has developed over time and the quality of the discussions (ok, most of the discussions).  Think about the people on line here that have never been in the air before unless the plane had DELTA on its side but can realistically discuss corner velocity, P_s lines, and lift vectors and, more impressively, relate them to how to use that information in an air battle.  That stuff is second nature to someone that's actually done it but to realize you've just had an extended discussion of the Meredeth Effect as it relates to the P-51 cooling system with a 15 year-old kid or a 65-year-old retired Pharmacist is pretty darn cool.

Anyway, I don't fly (or contribute in the forums) nearly as much as I used to due to work and travel and also relinquished my trainer slot for someone with more time to dedicate to the community but I've always had the idea that one day I'd compile some notes and make them available to the community on line.  I'm not really interested in publishing and I'd be happy to do it for free, I just need the time.  Even more importantly, I need to develop the computer skills to illustrate what I'm talking about.  You know what they say about a picture being worth a thousand words, unfortunently my pictures take about a thousand years to produce.  On the other hand, I've been particularly impressed with some of the products others have come up with that are tremendously useful such as Badboy's EM diagrams (which are priceless <S>) and rolling scissors animation.  Also, training videos like those done by Vudu and Batfink are great tools as are the many articles posted by the trainers on the AHT site.  Sadly, my illustrative skills are more suited to using airplanes on sticks to show a maneuver than actually producing useful diagrams and films that can be posted online but I'm working on it.  As for time in the TA I'd be happy to do it but my schedule makes it difficult to commit to a specific date or time but I'll look into it.  If I'm online feel free to PM me and we can try to do something but many of the AHTC can give very good advanced instruction and are probably more "scheduable."

[Nath[BDP]]

but if I end up 1v1 vs a Nath, a Bruv, or an Ink, I'm going to lose, and lose badly, like as in maybe 1/10 or 2/10 at best. 

Maybe.  My 1v1 skills are a bit rusty, I used to be more into dueling back in the day when I had more of a competitive "edge".  I've always preferred the spontaneity and improvisation of furballin.

I would be interested in a TA/DA session to experiment with this stuff. 

[hyzer]

Sadly, my illustrative skills are more suited to using airplanes on sticks to show a maneuver than actually producing useful diagrams and films that can be posted online but I'm working on it.  

Then perhaps instead of illustrations, videos doing a walk through using the airplanes on sticks accompanied by the text?

[katanaso]

Latrobe,

Another thing to work on, if you're not already cognizant of it, is which type of pursuit to use and when to use it:  lag, pure, or lead.

You may already know these and do them with or without thinking about it, but if not, it can open a lot of new doors for you. 

[Latrobe]

I wonder if you should change planes for awhile?  Something with less performance so you push yourself.  I remember reading how successful the Russians were with the P39.  If you can consistently win with the P39, my man, you are some kind of good.

I completely forgot about the P39! Very fun plane! The thick framing makes SA a real challenge too.

Latrobe,

Another thing to work on, if you're not already cognizant of it, is which type of pursuit to use and when to use it:  lag, pure, or lead.

You may already know these and do them with or without thinking about it, but if not, it can open a lot of new doors for you. 

That was one of the first things I learned when I started. It's become one of those things that I do without even thinking. I may choose the wrong pursuit from time to time (though I wouldn't know since I'm doing it without thinking), so maybe that's something I should go back and refresh my memory on. 

[Delirium]

I've always had the idea that one day I'd compile some notes and make them available to the community on line.  I'm not really interested in publishing and I'd be happy to do it for free, I just need the time.

You should publish it... there are very few books out now that attempt to combine an accurate flight model within a gaming background. The ones that are available now are close to worthless to anyone with some experience, and some even reinforce poor decisions.

This has been a great thread, one that I have taken advantage of for both training and personal use. 

[Delirium]

edit double post (the forums are incredibly slow today)

[katanaso]

That was one of the first things I learned when I started. It's become one of those things that I do without even thinking. I may choose the wrong pursuit from time to time (though I wouldn't know since I'm doing it without thinking), so maybe that's something I should go back and refresh my memory on. 

Awesome.   When I get shot down, I usually know if it was from pulling lead when I should've lagged.  It's usually against torque-y birds like those pesky 109's you maneuver so well.   

[Latrobe]

On the other hand, the effectiveness of an extension pitchback depends on how fast you already are, how quickly you can accelerate and what your adversary's plane, NRG state, and position are.  The idea is to put as much distance between the two of you as you can while his nose is pointed away from you and then do your pitchback as his nose comes on.  Think of it this way.  The two of you pass 180 out.  You extend building E while he's burning E doing a 180deg turn to follow you.  This is why you want to pitchback as his nose begins to point at you, you want him to keep turning and burning E while denying him the ability to build E in a straight line while you've already gained E and did a high-speed pitchback that was more efficient and quicker than his low E turn.  If you do this right then you'll be making a series of straight line passes while he's turning small circles to face you.  

Going back to this, at what point do I want to turn back into him? Am I looking for a certain distance to form between us, or am I looking for his plane to get to a certain position? I was trying this in the MA earlier with almost no success.

Are we still talking about using this tactic to defeat a diving attack? Or are we talking about using it in a merge? Are there certain plane match ups where this tactic just will not work? If I'm flying a straight line waiting for my opponent to make his turn, then isn't he flying a straight line while I'm making my turn into him? Doesn't this kind of negate the E advantage I built up by not turning?

[Nath[BDP]]

He's referring to using it in a merge scenario, as he was replying to something you asked about why you would want to extend farther from a con.  

That extension pitch back maneuver is used more in jet missile fights going 800mph where distances are greater and maneuvers are done over great distances.  I feel like gunfighting is a little more straight forward.

[Mace2004]

He's referring to using it in a merge scenario, as he was replying to something you asked about why you would want to extend farther from a con.  

That extension pitch back maneuver is used more in jet missile fights going 800mph where distances are greater and maneuvers are done over great distances.  I feel like gunfighting is a little more straight forward.

Few tactics are limited to one specific scenario and the extension/pitchback has many uses.  It's certainly possible to use it in a merge situation but it isn't limited to that.  It does get a bad name from those that like to blow through and "extend" to 4 or 5k and then come back and blow through again five minutes later but that's not the extension/pitchback I'm talking about.  Like I also said, a lot depends on the situation and what match up of aircraft you have.  For instance, if you're in a slow, tight turner in a 1v1 you might want to be like the boxer that ties the other guy up and keeps him close so you can keep jabbing him.  But, if you're the one with long reach (a fast, not quite as maneuverable fighter) or you're outnumbered, you might want to stay out from the middle of the fight, keep the bad men where you can easily see them so someone isn't punching you in the kidneys when you're not looking.  Maybe then you would more likely work an extension/pitchback fight.  

Also, no, the extension/pitchback fight isn't restricted to fighters with missiles or 800mph for that matter.  Speed and range are relative things. It doesn't matter if one of you is at 150 and the other at 300 or if one is at 450 and the other is at 600 or if the fight is tighter than 1k or greater than 4k, it's all relative.  The other situation, which really brought this up, is how to deal with two (or more) NME fighters on one.  Many people will just stay there smack in the middle burning E trying to defend and take whatever shot they can only to die just when they think they've got a kill shot.  However, you have a greater probability of surviving (and winning) when, instead of staying right in the middle of the fight you extend when you can to isolate the threat sector and get them in phase while maintaining or even building E.  This is true even when you're the slow turn fighter against a couple of faster late war rides.  You might not normally think about extensions in the slow angles fighter and sure, it can be difficult to gain any significant separation but it's not impossible and, if you can just reduce the threat sector from 360 degrees down to 180 degrees it's that much easier to keep track of the bad men and reduce the probability that you're going to be surprised.

Here's a nice little fight that starts out as a 2v4 then becomes a 1v2.  It's the 1v2 that's interesting and I think it answers the questions on extensions from both Latrobe and Nath.  I picked it because it's a classic NRG fighter(s) vs Angles fighter and there are a couple of examples of the extension/pitchback and how you can use it to isolate the threat and build a little E.  It's also a great example where you can really look at the numbers to see what's really happening in the fight.  I'll tell you up front that neither the 109 or 47 were overly aggressive and they stuck with the NRG gameplan throughout but to win that fight you have to keep the pressure on and bleed the other guy down so you can then convert your stored NRG into angles for the kill.  It's possible that they just didn't feel all that aggressive that day but it's more probable that they were waiting for me to get slow before going for the kill.  

BTW, just a personal recommendation but I like to view films first from the Fixed, Pan, Trails on settings in film viewer.  It gives you the best overall picture of the relative positions and maneuvers.  I also mention my speed on the deck in several places because it's a good snapshot of how I'm doing with my E.  By looking at an aircraft's speed while it's flat on the deck there is no potential NRG (altitude) to consider, it's all kinetic (speed) so I don't have to do any messy math to compute NRG altitude in public.

httData Recovery Labs??????????????Data Recovery Labs??????????????Data Recovery Labs??????????????Data Recovery Labs??????????????Data Recovery Labs??????????????Data Recovery Labs??????????????Data Recovery Labs??????????????Data Recovery Labs??????????????žú|žú|       276626078MltCpy2.10 FILL FILLed Sector; ST500DM002-9YN14 (CC4H) S1D5GMZYData Recovery Labs??????????????Data Recovery Labs??????????????Data Recovery Labs??????????????Data Recovery Labs??????????????Data Recovery Labs??????????????3mph.  200 to 220 is also my minimum target speed in a Brewster. It's a bit above corner giving me a buffer so I'll always have my best break turn available and the Brew also has a fairly decent vertical move at that speed so with 210 I'm feeling pretty comfortable. Of course some more E couldn't hurt.  

Notice that I also have the NME in the same piece of sky for the next pass but there's some separation between them (a lead/trail formation) which complicates things a little.  If I attack  the lead then I'm turning in front of the trailer so that's out.  If I pull up into the trailer the lead might have time to get his nose back at me.  I choose to prosecute the trailer and, if the 109 comes around I'll switch over the top to the 109 but here's where the 109 helps out and extends rather than turn.  I think that the Jug was thinking he'd stay high and when I turned after the 109 he'd roll in but I let the 109 pass me by and went after him instead.  The 109's extension takes him out of the fight for about 17 seconds giving me plenty of time to attack the Jug.  Unfortunately, my gunnery sucked :-).  

As I defend against the 109 attack at 1:49 notice that on the deck I've now built to 235mph so I've added 58mph and have plenty of E to do an easy BRD against the 109 but I see the Jug is now headed back my way so rather than follow the 109 I drop back down to neutralize the 47 by taking him 180 degrees out.  At the next merge they alternate for a few attacks but I've got plenty of E to evade afterwhich I quickly store some more E at time 2:40 as both of their noses are off but I make a potentially fatal mistake.  Rather than turn my tail to the bandits and extend and climb away from them I half axx it and point too close to the Jug getting myself bracketed with one attacking from each side at 2:50 but at 2:57 after a break turn at the pass with the Jug I now have them both in the same piece of sky at the same range and in phase.  This let's one defensive maneuver (a slice) defeat both attacks and the merge ends with both of them headed one way and me the other with good speed to gain separation.  

Now look at the relative positions at time 3:09.  This is precisely the picture you want to work for in this type of fight.  Both NME still have 90 degrees to go before they can get their noses back on me and I've gone from 0 to 2k separation and from on the deck to almost 2k and this is in a slowpoke little Brewster.  At 3:13 their noses are coming back on me so that will be the most separation that I'll be able to build so time for the pitchback.  Actually, it's another slice since I'm climbing away at only 188mph but it's the same concept.  Extend and then do your best turn to point back.  

At this time, notice my speed on the deck at 3+26.  254mph. I've added 77mph over a three and a half minute fight against two adversaries.  At the same time look at the NME's airspeeds on the deck.  The 109 is 278mph and the Jug is 262mph.  Anyone remember their airspeeds when they first attacked and I ended up down at 177mph?  The 109 was 275mph and the Jug was 295mph .  So, the 109 has stayed fairly NRG neutral throughout the fight while the Jug has lost about 33mph.  Basically, they've stayed pretty consistent because neither of them were willing to really commit to a knife fight which would have required them to slow down but during that same period of time I've been gaining E by a few short extensions away from an isolated threat.  

At time 3:37 what happens?  They give me almost the exact same picture they did before with the 109 passing first and extending while the Jug turns.  This time my gunnery is much better and the Jug goes down and then shortly after the 109 finds his way back to the fight.  He dives in, I do a BRD with a rudder roll at the top to roll me out level and then just wait while he pulls up right into my guns and then I follow him up.  Notice also that we're pretty much co-E.  In the end, the whole point to the NRG fight is to bleed the other guy down and then convert your stored NRG into angles for the kill.  If you can't bleed the guy down then it probably isn't going to work.

Last, I mentioned that this was a good example of NRG fighters versus an angles fighter but what really happened?  I didn't fight an angles fight, I fought an NRG fight from beginning to end.  Even though I was in what everyone would consider to be an angles fighter I didn't get slow and countered their NRG fight with some short extensions and isolation while keeping track of the second bandit and being aggressive in neutralizing one fighter (or letting him neutralize himself in the 109's case) so I could attack the other.