First turn merge How many Gs?

[Hazard69]

Interesting thread gents! Keep it coming, I'm gonna keep my eyes peeled on this one.......

Randy, I love your using the spit as an example, since to me that has proved to be the toughest opponent to beat. Most others I can either out turn or out run, but spits manage to climb up to me and then as I'm stalling out to reverse go into helicopter mode, hang on their prop to no end and kill me mercilessly.  

See if you can pick up on what I was doing to negate his advantage. Here's the link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGrb1txwK80

Hmm, lets see: Heres what I think.
1. You didnt lose sight of him through out the fight, which (ashamed to say it ), is still a bit of an issue for me especially when hes in my high 10 or 2 o'clk (where the cockpit bars block some vision).
2. Your initial evasives were low(ish) G turns without any flaps deployment to allow you to retain the most of your E, while forcing him to blow some of his.
3. Throttle management was the most important factor here I think. You cut throttle once on the downward leg to cut into his loop and stay on his rear. The second and final time, was in the upward portion (when you saw him doing that 109 helicopter 180 tailslide reversal thing ) which prevented an overshoot and allowed you to stay on his six and get the eventual kill.

Ok, now tell me all the good stuff, what'd I miss?  

Oh and btw is your monitor set to a wider FoV or is your head position moved further aft? The way you've got it set, you have severly reduced my problem of losing forward viisbility of the con in the 10 and 2 oclk position. Gonna have to give that a try.

I like flaps on nose low and then off nose high. Here the weight of the bird can help carry you upwards toward the top and you want to shed drag to get there. Going back down it's flaps back on to add drag, not only help with turning but to also slow your acceleration.

Very very interesting. Ive been doing pretty much the exact opposite of that. My logic was nose low I want to build speed and so a cleaner config would help there. Nose up I want to get around the loop faster and the added drag+lift of the flaps will help me do that. Never thought about the points you raised. I knew there was such a thing as 'too much speed', just didnt think it would ever occur on the P38 (unless ofcourse I'm diving straight down).

  Sirs. Keep this discussion going.

[Randy1]

Hazard69, since going to the TrackIR system, I can track a plane really well.  It does take some getting use to.

Still, full SA alludes me sometimes and when that happens, the tower is very close.

[Drano]

Hmm, lets see: Heres what I think.
1. You didnt lose sight of him through out the fight, which (ashamed to say it ), is still a bit of an issue for me especially when hes in my high 10 or 2 o'clk (where the cockpit bars block some vision).

It's important. There's a lot to be said for "lose sight--lose the fight" because it's the truth. The visibility in the 38 ain't the best, but the J/L are still way better than the G with that dang armor glass assembly right in front of you.


2. Your initial evasives were low(ish) G turns without any flaps deployment to allow you to retain the most of your E, while forcing him to blow some of his.

Because there's no reason to pull a lot of G--yet. Since he already has the advantage there's no reason to give him more. Keep him in view and watch what he's doing. My second evasive turn was heavier because he was shooting at me and I needed to throw off his solution.


3. Throttle management was the most important factor here I think. You cut throttle once on the downward leg to cut into his loop and stay on his rear. The second and final time, was in the upward portion (when you saw him doing that 109 helicopter 180 tailslide reversal thing ) which prevented an overshoot and allowed you to stay on his six and get the eventual kill.


I'll come off WEP when nose low more than throttle back. It's a speed management thing. And if you look closely you'll see I gain angles more in the nose low portion of the fight than the nose high. I'm not sure if his last maneuver was planned or not but I more or less released pull and popped a notch of flap losing sight for a sec but the idea was I'd kick rudder whichever way he ended up off my nose.


Ok, now tell me all the good stuff, what'd I miss?  

I think his best chance here was early in the fight (third pass I think) where we were almost nose on as I was inverted. I think he was setting up for a shot as I crossed his nose and I didn't cooperate doing a snap roll to the left just before I might have passed in front giving him no shot. This set the fight going right which is better for the 38 vs most birds. While not a tremendous advantage it helps. He turned sharply right and seemed to have scrubbed a lot of E right here. I then continued with the flaps and throttle.



Oh and btw is your monitor set to a wider FoV or is your head position moved further aft? The way you've got it set, you have severly reduced my problem of losing forward viisbility of the con in the 10 and 2 oclk position. Gonna have to give that a try.

I think my FOV is set to auto int he game. I generally set my head position a bit farther aft and a touch up than some for the exact reason you're seeing. Better view over the nose and between 10 and 2.



Very very interesting. Ive been doing pretty much the exact opposite of that. My logic was nose low I want to build speed and so a cleaner config would help there. Nose up I want to get around the loop faster and the added drag+lift of the flaps will help me do that. Never thought about the points you raised. I knew there was such a thing as 'too much speed', just didnt think it would ever occur on the P38 (unless ofcourse I'm diving straight down).

Gotta factor in that the Lightning is a big heavy bird (some might call it a bomber ). It's much heavier than a 109 for sure. It's so heavy and also clean that heading downhill at all it tends to build up speed quickly--so you have to manage it more than with most other birds. Pure verticle down you better be on top of it or you'll end up in trouble fast. Maybe not so much with an enemy as the ground! The flaps idea is to use gravity as a sort of judo. You don't want to get too fast--as you otherwise will--as it'll hose your turn rate. The energy egg shape at the bottom would be waay wide. You have to manage it. Other lighter birds don't have this "problem" and need to clean up going downhill to regain E then not having the extra weight to carry them through upwards need the flap more at the top.


  Sirs. Keep this discussion going.

and good luck learning the 38.

[Babalonian]

I assure you, I know nothing. 

[Triton28]

Lightbulb = on.  Good thread.  Thanks for the video Drano.   

[doright]

Small remark

You can't dive to gain E. Energy is the total of your mass times altitude (potential energy) plus your mass times speed squared (kinetic energy).

If you dive you convert your potential energy into kinetic energy. If you zoom up it's vice versa. Assuming your engine was finely adjusted just to offset drag all that diving and zooming would result in no net energy change.

So you can dive to gain speed, but you can't dive to gain energy.

[TequilaChaser]

Small remark

You can't dive to gain E. Energy is the total of your mass times altitude (potential energy) plus your mass times speed squared (kinetic energy).

If you dive you convert your potential energy into kinetic energy. If you zoom up it's vice versa. Assuming your engine was finely adjusted just to offset drag all that diving and zooming would result in no net energy change.

So you can dive to gain speed, but you can't dive to gain energy.

Hmm....

"Potential energy" ( known as given altitude mostly ) plus "Kinetic energy" ( known as given speed mostly ) actually equals
one's TOTAL "Energy State" . So yes, one can dive to gain or regain "E" .... This "E" is in the kinetic form, which will help the P38
climb ( or even ZOOM ) back up to "store" ,  deposit , etc... "E" in the potential form.... just to be used, burned, traded off for "E",
once one decides they need to regain "E" ....

However, I and probably every one else, understood what each post/reply meant... without getting nitty gritty technical, althoughit is great that you brought up the subject in this thread

<§>

TC


ps:  Randy, that 325 ~ 360 pre merge speed is something "myself" strives (and recommend others ) to try and reach,  but it is not a do or die requirement, ... Me, personally would go ahead and merge/engage in the fight...

[TequilaChaser]

btw. ^^^^^ was posted trying to use a description in "laymen's words" instead of aeronautical engineering study guides....


and this phone I'm typing on never let's me "modify" any post

Thanks for bringing up the subject of "E" , doright

Cheers

TC

[doright]

Thanks for bringing up the subject of "E" , doright

 

Not the first time I've heard people say dive to pick up E. Kind of annoys me.

From a training perspective what is really important is that when trying to compare energy states you have to use total energy.