He177 ?

[GScholz]

350 mph at 20k with a 13,000 lbs internal bomb load might need perking, but whether it would need perking or not is rather irrelevant. After all it's something HTC balances by usage numbers, not performance.

[GScholz]

Other Luftwaffe bombers that would be useable in the LWA:


Ju 188E


310 mph. 6,600 lbs bomb load. One 20mm cannon, three 13mm MGs.


Ju 290A-5


273 mph. 6,600 lbs bomb load. Possibly the most heavily armed bomber of the war with four 20mm cannons and two 13mm MGs.


Do 217M


347 mph. 6,600 lbs bomb load. Two 13mm MGs, four 7.92mm MGs.

[jag88]

350 mph at 20k with a 13,000 lbs internal bomb load might need perking, but whether it would need perking or not is rather irrelevant. After all it's something HTC balances by usage numbers, not performance.

Unless I am reading this wrong, fully loaded the He-177 does less than that:



Clean? Maybe, but what good is that for a bomber?  It should be doing around 460Kmh fully loaded on military, hardly record breaking.

[jag88]

The existence of the H8K2 'Emily' suggests otherwise.

Also, should the He177 be modeled to the fantasies of the Luftwaffe fans here (330mph, 13,000lb bomb load, defended by 20mm cannons) it most certainly would need to be perked.

Ok, and that one, somehow I always fail to consider that hydro a bomber.

We already discussed the 20mm angles for the He-177 and how awful they were, I dont think they are such an issue:



The blue lines belong to the version with 2x20mm guns.

[jag88]

I know it's from wiki, so doesn't hold much salt.  Governing the engines could be something that is hard coded.  Or they could leave it be, to where you can flame yourself out of them.  Though you'll probably start to see 177 pilots ask why the 29 won't flame out.  So going with the governing code my be a better option.


This one is a doozy regardless.  However, even I would have to fully disagree with it being a Non-Perked plane.  Definitely perk her.   I'll likely fly her as much, if only slightly more than the B-29.  Reason I say that is that she's likely to get off the ground a bit easier with 100% fuel vs the B-29.

Just limit WEP duration and have it accelerate slowly in order to mimic the careful management its finicky engines required.

[GScholz]

Unless I am reading this wrong, fully loaded the He-177 does less than that:

(Image removed from quote.)

Clean? Maybe, but what good is that for a bomber?  It should be doing around 460Kmh fully loaded on military, hardly record breaking.

I've found that reaching the target is usually not a problem. Getting away with it after dropping the bombs however is. In early 1944 during the "Baby Blitz" the He 177 was bombing London in full daylight. Usually in a 400+ mph shallow dive across the channel. During the "Baby Blitz" it was by far the most survivable Luftwaffe bomber with a loss rate of less than 10%.

[GScholz]

How "finicky" could the engines have been, and how difficult could the He 177 have been to fly, when a British pilot and a flight engineer could successfully fly a captured Greif from France to England with no training or prior experience with the aircraft? They didn't even have much time to prepare; they were just dropped with a commando team and stole the aircraft at a German airfield.

[lyric1]

A dive bomber that could not dive.

[GScholz]

It was a level bomber. The dive attack design requirement was rescinded in 1942.

[jag88]

How "finicky" could the engines have been, and how difficult could the He 177 have been to fly, when a British pilot and a flight engineer could successfully fly a captured Greif from France to England with no training or prior experience with the aircraft? They didn't even have much time to prepare; they were just dropped with a commando team and stole the aircraft at a German airfield.

By then the aircraft faults were well known with fixes and procedures in place that made he aircraft reliable and, IIRC, that and other Greifs were captured by the French and its French mechanics were able to provide the necessary information to the "raiders" (a fact easily verifiable since the RAF painted over the French insignia the aircraft already sported) but, it was still inadvisable to over-stress the engines since any fault could lead to losing 50% of the aircraft's power and the Greif could not fly on 1 engine at weights over 22t IIRC.

Regarding the inclined flights back... well, every KG bomber (Ju-88, Do-217) with the exception of the He-111 (cannot recall if used during Steinbock) could do pretty much that (although at a slower speed) while the Greifs were a minimal part of the force which undoubtedly helped reduced its losses.

[Scherf]

First I've heard of a daylight baby blitz mission. Not stirring the pot, just the first I've heard.

[Lusche]

In early 1944 during the "Baby Blitz" the He 177 was bombing London in full daylight.

Unternehmen Steinbock "Baby Blitz" and the He 177 sorties were a night bombing campaign.

[Tank-Ace]

The He-177 would be the only survivable non-perk axis bomber...

Do 117, Ju 188.

[GScholz]

Unternehmen Steinbock "Baby Blitz" and the He 177 sorties were a night bombing campaign.

You are of course absolutely right. My mistake.

[lyric1]

How "finicky" could the engines have been, and how difficult could the He 177 have been to fly, when a British pilot and a flight engineer could successfully fly a captured Greif from France to England with no training or prior experience with the aircraft? They didn't even have much time to prepare; they were just dropped with a commando team and stole the aircraft at a German airfield.

Eric Browns book.




http://www.scribd.com/doc/120165663/1967-Aero-Series-No-13-Heinkel-177-Greif