He177 ?

[Karnak]

Obviously any fan of a given bomber will simply use that bomber.  Our discussion is about the players, I suspect the bulk of them, who simply pick what they think is the best tool for the job.  As evidence I submit the Lancaster itself.  It is the most used bomber in the game despite its weak guns and without that many commonwealth players its popularity cannot be much associated with Lancaster fans.  What holds it back is not just that fans of the B-17G and B-24J will use those over it, but also that its defenses are too weak for many situations.  The He177 would significantly redress that problem.

As to durability, shoot a B-24J in the wing root a little and it goes up in flames every time so I don't think the He177A-5 will be more vulnerable really.

[Tank-Ace]

I must have missed that poll. I would like to see it added. I understand Karnak's concerns, but that is part of what the perk system is for. If the plane begins to be to dominant, perk it. Or, if it appears its performance is too far above others in its class, make it a perk from the beginning. There's no good reason not to include it in the plane set as it meets all of the other requirements.

Regards,

Hammer

With all due respect, I don't view you as a Luft pilot, in that case. History and immersion are why I fly the German Iron. Thus I abhor the idea of the 177 overshadowing anything we currently have in the game.

[hammer]

With all due respect, I don't view you as a Luft pilot, in that case. History and immersion are why I fly the German Iron. Thus I abhor the idea of the 177 overshadowing anything we currently have in the game.

That's kind of funny. I've been flying nothing but German iron since 2008 and flew it most of the time for several years before that. I've been in a squad that flies nothing but German iron since 2008. Heck, I even flew German most of the time back in Air Warrior.

As is often pointed out, the MA is a tough place to find anything close to historical accuracy and it's tough to find true immersion unless you block out the fact that a P-51 just saved you from the 190 that was trying to kill your 109  . That discussion could go on for days, and has in many other threads!

I don't disagree that the impact of the 177 on the war was negligible. Personally, I don't fly bombers more than once or twice a year unless that happens to be our mission on one of the rare FSOs that I can make, so I have absolutely no personal stake in wanting any bomber. Heck, if anything, it makes attacking bombers that much harder. But to say it shouldn't be included at all is like denying it existed and was used operationally. Again, rare / dominant planes is what the perk system is for.

Regards,

Hammer

[hammer]

Double post... 

[Franz Von Werra]

"the He-177 shouldnt be able to run at full throttle"
What I heard, if the P-51 used all of its wep, the entire engine needed to be overhauled. So, no re-arming for P-51's???? <--- I heard that even Hitech said this about p51's wep!
Oh, and NO PLANE could ride around at FULL throttle for the whole flight. Go drive your car, LITTERALY, pedal to the metal on the freeway for a 5 minutes, see what happens. Best chance is German cars, precise machines, which is one reason why they are so expensive. Percision = endurance = expensive.

Earlier russian fighter planes? The engines overheated easily... final moments in many of the early fights on the russian front could have been.. first - yak3 blows engine, next - yak3 coasting powerless towards earth, finally - 109 kills him? Our temperature guage applys ONLY for radiator hits, and for a slight indication of when our W.E.P. is about to run out? - we dont have a guage for how much 'nitro' is left, only for how hot the engine is.  And more is you cant judge a plane totally by the speed and climb charts!

So nevermind "only He-177 shouldnt be allowed max throttle" - none of these planes could fly at max speed all day. In game E6B shows 'cruise speed'... DUH! DUH! DUH!
We get 'full throttle' ability because it would take too long to get to a fight!

Ki-84s only had about 1.5 minutes of wep? But it recharges in how many seconds? WEP RAN OUT, not endless supply like in here! The size of the WEP tank probably had to do with when the engine would explode or need total replacement!
German stuff has always been know for quality and hightechnology. Florida Key's bridges were made with German cement that could dry underwater, shipped in all the way from germany! Precise quality and generaly 'over engineered' because German designers put more emphasis on the German solidier having an ADVANTAGE! Porsches are high performance, high endurance, percision machines. They run forever but when they finally do breakdown, they are more expensive for parts and labor than any 'generic' car. Made in Germany > Made in China... DUH! He-177 is generally the same boat. Once bugs were worked out, they had a better machine! Again, the 109 prototype first flew in May 1935 so very much de-bugged high-end machine.

Saying that ONLY a luftwaffe plane shouldn't be able to run at full throttle is the most biased thing I've heard yet.

NOT ALL PLANES ARE EQUAL. I wouldnt expect a I-16 to compete with a Spit-16 for a reason... SPIT 16 > I-16... OOOHHKAAAY? We dont need to over-model the I-16, or under model the Spit-16...
But they both have a 16 in the title they should be equaaaaal!?!? No, they arent same plane, not equal!
He-177 A-5 should be put in game AS IT WAS with consideration for how the game goes!

HAMMER, HI, <SALUTE>
You too Blunder! <SALUTE>
I also fly mostly only Luftwaffe and generally I don't fly bombers either!
This is the point, we Luftwaffe guys MIGHT fly BOMBERS "more than twice a year" or "come back to game" if we had a FUN TO FIGHT IN LATE WAR MAIN ARENA ARMED BOMBER WITH A CHANCE TO LAND!
Especially if it was as Historically BETTER than other bombers in game! YES PERK? Tigers are perked, 262s are perked... Spit14 is perked... Better = perked?
Generally, when we get bored of flying FIGHTERS, we LOG OUT! Be nice if we had a BOMBER fun to fly and fight with too! We would stay in game longer!
AND SOME PLAYERS LIKE BOMBERS ONLY AND DONT LIKE FLYING FIGHERS! LUFTWAFFE BOMBER ONLY TYPE PILOTS DONT REALLY HAVE A PLANE IN AH!

Mr Hitech <SALUTE>, Mr Pyro <SALUTE>, your player base has gaps! Hardcore Luftwaffles, Luftwhiners, Luftwobbles, and Luftdweebs are mostly only flying FIGHTERS!
Again, the Ju-88 is neat but surviving to land is kinda rare if going to an 'action' area. FAILING is NOT FUN! Discouragement usually means "go do something else!"
AR-234 is fun if you want to only milk run and not fight at all. VERY NEATO!!! but boooorrriiing!!!
He-111 will be neat too, depending on its defensive guns, it might get more use than the Ju-88! Your Japan bomber Ki-67 with the 20mm is neat but most 'nationalist' players arent going for it! Why its a hangar queen!
He-177 = more time in game, more accounts, more targets, more fun!

<SALUTE ALL>

[Karnak]

"the He-177 shouldnt be able to run at full throttle"
What I heard, if the P-51 used all of its wep, the entire engine needed to be overhauled. So, no re-arming for P-51's???? <--- I heard that even Hitech said this about p51's wep!

Same engine as on the Spitfire, so....no.  Needed to be checked as it affected the maintenance schedule.  Example: Spitfire Mk V pilot panicked and ran WEP for 30 minutes.  Upon inspection of his engine nothing was amiss and the aircraft was returned to service.  R2800s, the engine in the P-47, were run at WEP for 24+ hours in testing without problems.

Oh, and NO PLANE could ride around at FULL throttle for the whole flight. Go drive your car, LITTERALY, pedal to the metal on the freeway for a 5 minutes, see what happens. Best chance is German cars, precise machines, which is one reason why they are so expensive. Percision = endurance = expensive.

Nope, but fighters spent far, far higher percentages of their time at MIL settings than did bombers, particularly short ranged fighters such as the Bf109 and Spitfire.

Earlier russian fighter planes? The engines overheated easily..

RAF squadrons stationed in Russia (there actually were some) were shocked to find that the Russians typically flew at full throttle for the whole sortie.  It made escorting Russian bombers in their Hurricanes very hard.  I am sure it increased engine failure rates significantly, but not as you prattle about in your Yak-3 example.

So nevermind "only He-177 shouldnt be allowed max throttle" - none of these planes could fly at max speed all day. In game E6B shows 'cruise speed'... DUH! DUH! DUH!
We get 'full throttle' ability because it would take too long to get to a fight!

As I stated, and jag88 disagreed, the method of modeling HTC would likely resort to is making the engines more fragile to incoming fire as they did with the B-29's engines.

Ki-84s only had about 1.5 minutes of wep? But it recharges in how many seconds? WEP RAN OUT, not endless supply like in here! The size of the WEP tank probably had to do with when the engine would explode or need total replacement!

Depends entirely on the engine.  For Merlins and Allisons it was endless unless the engine broke or ran out of fuel.  R-2800s used a water-methanol injection (maybe just water?) and once that was gone there was no more WEP.  Later German fighters also used additives, but earlier ones like the Bf109E-4 just used higher boost settings as on the Merlin and Allison, so far as I know. Not sure about the Homare 45-21 in the Ki-84, but I do know that boost setting is a take off setting.  AH limits WEP artificially otherwise Mustangs and Spitfires would just use WEP for the whole flight (Hey, I just get a new plane next flight anyways!) while P-47s and some Bf109s and Fw190s would be time limited on WEP due to using additives.

German stuff has always been know for quality and hightechnology. Florida Key's bridges were made with German cement that could dry underwater, shipped in all the way from germany! Precise quality and generaly 'over engineered' because German designers put more emphasis on the German solidier having an ADVANTAGE! Porsches are high performance, high endurance, percision machines. They run forever but when they finally do breakdown, they are more expensive for parts and labor than any 'generic' car. Made in Germany > Made in China... DUH! He-177 is generally the same boat. Once bugs were worked out, they had a better machine! Again, the 109 prototype first flew in May 1935 so very much de-bugged high-end machine.

You might want to take the glasses off and read a bit more.  Nothing is as cut and dried as you make it out to be.  For example, the Bf109E-4, very good and reliable, the Bf109K-4, not so much.  The Tiger II was terrible mechanically.  The A6M2 was better built than its American opponents, the N1K2-J and Ki-84 were horribly unreliable.

Saying that ONLY a luftwaffe plane shouldn't be able to run at full throttle is the most biased thing I've heard yet.

You realize that was only suggested by jag88, a Luftwaffe fan and one of your fellow He177 advocates, right?

[Tank-Ace]

Hammer,  not at all saying it shouldn't be added ever,  just not before the Ju188 and Do 217.

[Franz Von Werra]

Wikipedia.com - check yak-1, yak-9, yak-3 (early, mid, and latewar)
SOURCES!!!

Yak-1: early war version
Technical issues with subassemblies provided by different suppliers raised the I-26-2's weight 400 kg (882 lb) above projected figures, which restricted the airframe to only 4.4 G while overheating oil was still a problem. The many defects caused I-26-2 to fail government testing in 1940. Fortunately for Yakovlev, its competitors I-200 (future Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-3) and I-301 (future LaGG-3) also failed testing. Requested improvements were incorporated into I-26-3 which was delivered for testing on 13 October 1940. Although it passed on 9 December 1940, the aircraft was still very much unfinished with unresolved engine problems.

Production was further slowed by shortages of engines, propellers, radiators, wheels and cannons. Shortages of quality materials resulted in plywood being torn off the wings on several aircraft.

Due to loose tolerances, each aircraft was essentially unique with workers performing the final assembly having the unenviable task of mating what often proved to be somewhat dissimilar components. For example, left and right main landing gear could be of different lengths and different angles relative to the aircraft which required adjusting their attachments to ensure an even stance for the completed aircraft. Parts were often non-interchangeable between aircraft.[/b]

The aircraft's major problem early in deployment was fuel leaks caused by failure of spot-welded fuel tanks from vibration. Also troublesome was the fact that the canopy could not be opened under certain conditions in earlier models, potentially trapping the pilot in a falling aircraft. As the result, some pilots had the sliding portion of the canopy removed altogether. The first 1,000 Yak-1 had no radios at all. Installation of radio equipment became common by spring 1942 and obligatory by August 1942.[7] But Soviet radios were notoriously unreliable and short-ranged so they were frequently removed to save weight.
 
Like most early carburetor-equipped engines, the M-105 could not tolerate negative G forces which starved it of fuel. Moreover, they suffered breakdowns of magnetos and speed governors, and emitted oil from the reduction shaft.[8]

Yak-9: midwar version.
Unfortunately, the problems with the M-107A engine and moreover all the M-105 variants from which it derived, persisted: power plant overheating, oil leaks, loss of pressure in climbs, intense vibrations, burning out sparkplugs and a short engine life.

Yak-3: <--actually their late war version. Introduced in 1944.
Unresolved wartime problems with the Yak-3 included plywood surfaces coming unstuck when the aircraft pulled out of a high-speed dive.[1] Other drawbacks of the aircraft were short range and poor engine reliability. The pneumatic system for actuating landing gear, flaps and brakes, typical for all Yakovlev fighters of the time, was problematic. Though less reliable than hydraulic or electrical alternatives, the pneumatic system was preferred owing to significant weight savings.

THIS STUFF MAKES early HE-177's look GRRRREAT!

Oh and:
Ju-188 would be more of the saaame.
Do-217 should have Do-17 added first, both though are MORE OF THE SAAAAME!

[Karnak]

THIS STUFF MAKES early HE-177's look GRRRREAT!

Your sources say nothing of the frequency of the listed problems and include irrelevant stuff about supply issues causing production delays.  If one were to read what you wrote literally one would believe no Yak fighter ever worked, which is a notion I am sure some surviving Luftwaffe pilots who fought on the East Front would disabuse you of.

For the record, no, those problems do not make the He177 seem great.

Oh and:
Ju-188 would be more of the saaame.
Do-217 should have Do-17 added first, both though are MORE OF THE SAAAAME!

How so?  Ju188 has a 20mm cannon in a top turret with 360 degree rotation as well as heavier caliber machine guns and much improved speed.  Do217 has a large internal payload and is even faster.  Do17Z would be more of the same, except worse.

[Franz Von Werra]

Hey, don't 'YOU' me...
All that is from wikipedia, which has a system to help insure accurate information. Each sentence has a source number, and the lists of sources are at the bottom of the page... books, etc, written by people who were there and knew things! much more than Karnak's "Big Color Book of the  Uber RAF" ~ by Captian Erik Brown HAHA

Ok... sooo no sources ever from you, on anything! LOL

[Scherf]

wikipedia, which has a system to help insure accurate information

 

[Franz Von Werra]

Better than captain erik brown!

I'll see your  , and raise you two more...  

whats the matter? truth hurting? He-177 >>> Lanc  

[Karnak]

Out of curiosity, what was the He177's accuracy during the mini-blitz?

[Krusty]

Accuracy wasn't even part of it. It was terror/revenge bombing. No matter where the bombs landed they blew something up in the dense packed streets of London.

So, that's a moot point really.

[Lusche]

Out of curiosity, what was the He177's accuracy during the mini-blitz?

Abysmal.

Just like the accurracy of any other bomber in those raids, mostly due to very low training levels of mostly green aircrews.

But while the number of aborted missions was very high for all types (first two raids: 101 planes out of 732), the abort rate due to technical problems was extremely high for the He 177, at about 50%.