Author Topic: BF-109T  (Read 950 times)

Offline Denniss

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Re: BF-109T
« Reply #15 on: February 25, 2013, 12:36:51 PM »
The Bf 109T was based on Bf 109 E-7/N, not on the E-7. Standard E-7 had 601A or Aa engines, not the 601N.

Offline Krusty

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Re: BF-109T
« Reply #16 on: February 25, 2013, 03:31:43 PM »
The E-7 was always intended to have the N engine. This was standard. It came from the factory that way.

The problem was over the years it served, those at the END of service life, relegated to jabo and non-fighter duties, had run out of these engines. They were no longer produced. So a study says that at the very end a large number had A engines in them. Well this is simply a supply chain problem. They had to change the engine, all they had were A or Aa so they put them in.

It was always a 601N engine. That's what it rolled from the factory with. That's pretty much what it saw service with when it was used as a frontline fighter.


P.S. I think only T-1s had the long wingspan, and T-2s reverted to a standard wing. Thus T-2s were almost the same as E-7s in every way you can think of, except maybe slightly heavier. If the T-2 reverting to shorter wings is correct.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2013, 03:36:57 PM by Krusty »

Offline Krusty

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Re: BF-109T
« Reply #17 on: February 25, 2013, 03:49:31 PM »
I think I should add a side comment about the "always 610N"... I might have to change that to "always intended to be" but I am certain the E-7 flew with the -N engine. I have even seen speed charts that have it faster than the E-4 but slower than the F-2. The F-2, if you recall, had the same DB601N engine, but was more aerodynamic. This was in early 1941 also, so the E-7 served in a wide variety of fronts but was replaced as "the" frontline fighter by the 109F as quickly as the F could be produced.

Offline Krusty

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Re: BF-109T
« Reply #18 on: February 25, 2013, 04:13:03 PM »
Okay, the wing wasn't shortened, but there were some changes to it. Found this and it's somewhat interesting.

Far less actual service than I thought it had. Mostly an advanced trainer for later types, or used where small runways were a concern off islands in the North.

Quote
Hey Martin, here's the full story; this is a repost from a few years back:

The original basis for the German carrier based fighter was the Bf 109E-1. To be built by Fiesler Werke, the "Bf-109T" (with the "T" standing for "Träger"), was to be used on the German aircraft carriers GRAF ZEPPELIN (launched but never completed) and PETER STRASSER (never built).

Redesign work for the Bf 109T was significant; wings with longer span and extended maneuvering slats/ailerons (contrary to what is almost universally written, as built, the wings on the “Toni” did not fold!), arrester hook in front of a locking tailwheel, catapult attachment gear, spoilers on top of the wings, strengthened oleo struts and rear fuselage, and interconnected ailerons and flaps. As Messerschmitt was fully committed, this work (and the production) was "sub-contracted" to Fiesler.

Ten Bf 109T-0 pre-production aircraft were to be converted from Bf 109E-1's (already in airframe production) and an order was also placed (Wknr:7728-7797) for 70 Bf 109T-1 production aircraft; these were to be new build. All of these machines were originally spec'd to receive the DB601A powerplant.

While the ten Bf 109T-0's were delivered as per plan, the subsequent abandonment of the "Z" Plan saw the production of the 70 Bf-109T-1's halted (seven had been completed to the original spec; DB601A motor, full naval kit). The other 63 machines under contract were later completed (in 1941) as land-based fighters; these were re-designated Bf 109T-2. This designation reflected the fact that they were built without the carrier-specific gear and re-engined with the DB601N, which ran on high-octane (C3) fuel. They had twin MG-17's in the cowling and an MG-FF/N cannon in each wing; they were also fitted with a centerline station (ala E-7) for an ETC250 bomb rack and plumbed for a drop tank. The wing was "rebuilt" with the designed folding section fixed in place however all the other wing modifications (extended slats, integrated flaps/ailerons, spoilers) were retained.

These machines had superlative short-field performance (obviously) and were assigned to a few of the "tighter" airfields in Norway, (initially with 2.,3., and 13./JG77) as well as the autonomous Jägdgruppe Drontheim, where they provided sterling service from June-December 1941. All Bf 109T's were withdrawn from operational service at this point in time, and were returned to their original owner, the Kriegsmarine.

Not surprisingly, the orders that brought this about were issued in late '41 when the assumption was that Barbarossa had indeed succeeded. As such, carrier aviation was being once more considered as an option (in the coming war with the western allies), and the KM had a brief period of reawakened interest in the nearly completed “Graf Zeppelin”. By the dictates of this order, an indeterminate number of Bf 109T-2’s were fitted out with the modifications required for carrier-based operations and placed into storage at Pillau; there they remained until the end of 1942. As this pivotal year drew to a close, it was obvious that the “Graf Zeppelin” was never going to need aircraft; the arrestor hooks and catapult capabilities were now removed (there’s that vaunted “German efficiency” in action again) and the “Toni’s” were turned back over to the Luftwaffe.

During this re-refit, a number of other modifications were also made to some of the machines. Among these: provision for GM1 (nitrous oxide) boost, a new supercharger intake (with a noticeable external difference on those machines which received this mod), armoured windscreen and deletion of the external aerial for the FuG 25 (IFF). Many of the planes were initially assigned to training units and Eprobungs purposes; among these operators were: “A” Staffel /JG 11 (OTU), I. Erganzungs-Nachtjägd Staffel (einmot.) (the proving unit for the “Wilde Sau” tactic), Nachtjägdschule 1, NJG 101, I.(Erg.) JG 2 (OTU), Blindflugschule 10, 5./ JG 101, and N. Aufklarungsgruppe 2.

Sometime in April/May 1943, the above mentioned “Wilde Sau” Eprobungsgruppe went operational as III/ JG 300 with the well known Major “Hajo” Hermann at its helm. It’s initial aircraft included at least 10 Bf 109T’s which were transferred from the above noted Eprobungs unit.
Although the 109T was little more than a “hotrodded” E7, the growing USAAF presence over northern Germany would now also see “Toni” go back to war by day. Capitalizing again on the STOL performance of the type, Jägdstaffel (Jasta) Helgoland was established on the small island in late-April, 1943. Subordinated to II/JG 11 for administrative purposes, this unit had an initial establishment of 12 Bf 109T-2/Z (Z denotes the GM1 mod.).

By late-October of the same year, 21 aircraft were on strength and a TDY base had been set up at Lister, in southern Norway. Somewhere in this period, (the source is unclear on an exact date) the unit was officially established as 11./JG 11. In early June, 1944, the pilots of 11./JG 11 were ordered back to Germany to pick up new aircraft; their 109T’s were re-assigned to IV/JG 5 but saw limited use. Shortly thereafter, the remaining “Toni’s” were returned to JG 11, and relegated to service with the “A” Staffel (OTU). Thus ends the combat career of the Bf 109T.

There is a definitive text available on this unique bird: “Messerschmitt Bf 109T: Die jäger der Graf Zeppelin”, Frederick L. Marshall, Marshall Verlag GmbH, (2002). This is an update of his previously published work (1994) on the subject, which was translated into English. As of yet, no translation of the new work has been issued, although the author plans to do so when he’s recovered enough of his investment via sales of the German edition.

My primary reference for preparation of this post is “Profiles in Norway 3: Bf 109T”; Kjetil Aakra (Author) and Arild Kjaeraas (Ed.)

Cheers, Ron

found here: http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103658

Offline Denniss

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Re: BF-109T
« Reply #19 on: February 26, 2013, 04:38:33 AM »
The E-7 had DB 601 A-1 or Aa as standard - the 601N was in chronical short supply and by far not enough to equip all E-7 ordered. Thus they were redesignated E-7/N if a DB 601N fount it's way into an E-7.
F-1/F-2 had a slightly modified 601N. But I can't remember the exact changes. From memory it was at least a change to the supercharger impeller but may also block/cylinder strengthening to permit longer duration of higher boost settings.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2013, 04:42:45 AM by Denniss »

Offline Krusty

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Re: BF-109T
« Reply #20 on: February 27, 2013, 01:46:17 PM »
The Germans were anal retentive about re-designating and re-naming even the slightest variation. The Bf109F-2 used a DB601N, hence I doubt there were any changes to the engine itself. As you say, I too think the supercharger was slightly different but that's kind of considered separate from the engine as far as designations go. That would explain minor differences in FTH and whatnot. If they'd changed it there would be a new designation for that engine, which no references to date have ever mentioned.


DB601s did have a chronic production problem, but keep in mind a lot of this was from early 1940. By the time the BOB was over there were more and more 601Ns being moved away from Bf110 gruppen and pushed into 109s. In late 1940 even then emphasis was being given to early 109F prototypes but Luftwaffe commanders were demanding the engine for 109Es and they got their way. Even some 110s that were intended to get the 601N were finished with 601A or Aa and the N engines were diverted to 109E production instead.

In January 1941, just after BOB, there were 112 Bf109s with 601Ns and 135 bf110s with them. The 110s were being built with these engines to replace losses in the gruppen using them, only. They were just there to maintain numbers. This was early 1941, and the number would only shift more and more to the Bf109 side of the scale.

The way I understood it is the E-7 was directly based on the E-4/N. The E-4 had the /N designator to denote DB601N engine installed, but the E-7 didn't need this as the 601N was the default. Now, this could be wrong but from reading up on a large number of BBS discussions on this and half a dozen other forums (often with most insightful quotations or references) I came to the conclussion[ed: a couple years back] that the E-7s had more 601Ns that you would think.

The thing of it is even E-3s were updated to E-7 standards, sometimes including engine replacements with 601N engines. Most still had their 601A engines, but were now E-7s. E-4s underwent the same upgradesand became E-7s. Much like how early E-3s were refitted to become identical to E-4s. After 1940 all remaining Bf109E-1s through E-4s began being converted to E-7s. Naturally there weren't enough 601N engines to replace them all, but the records indicate that even in training schools E-7s became the primary ride. It was a systematic change to upgrade all Emils across the board.

There are cases of the same werk number Bf109E-1 being upgraded and listed as E-4 then upgraded and later listed as E-7. You can even see some photos with the Mg17 wing ports plated over with metal plugs (some even look fabric covered) next to the MG/FF barrels. And yet, these are all E-7s but quite possibly retain their 601A engines.

These upgraded planes also skew the number of 601As found on E-7s at the time they were removed from service. Something like 2/3 of all E-7s had DB601As when removed from duty in 1942, but knowing all the previous versions converted and the slow production for 601N engines and the need to replace worn engines in the field with whatever is available, these numbers can be misleading. At the time they were still front-line fighters through 1941, they were becoming the definite version of Bf109 on the Western Front.

To me, THAT is the definitive E-7 variant and that is what we ought to have included in AH. It would also remove redundancies with our E-4 because if modeled with the 601A it would be very redundant.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2013, 01:51:08 PM by Krusty »

Offline LCADolby

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Re: BF-109T
« Reply #21 on: February 27, 2013, 01:54:12 PM »
I bet it would be interesting to use the (just behind) leading edge air brake on those T2s in combat. Overshoots galore  :D
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Offline phatzo

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Re: BF-109T
« Reply #22 on: February 27, 2013, 02:08:02 PM »
No thank you Turkish, I'm sweet enough.

Offline Krusty

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Re: BF-109T
« Reply #23 on: February 27, 2013, 02:15:39 PM »
I bet it would be interesting to use the (just behind) leading edge air brake on those T2s in combat. Overshoots galore  :D

All naval gear was removed by the KM before returning the planes to the Luftwaffe. They didn't use dive brakes. I don't believe they even had them.

Offline jag88

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Re: BF-109T
« Reply #24 on: February 27, 2013, 06:06:22 PM »
All naval gear was removed by the KM before returning the planes to the Luftwaffe. They didn't use dive brakes. I don't believe they even had them.

Hes talking about the over the wing air brake the Ts had, not any imaginary dive brakes, and the KM never got those airplanes they were always intended for the Luftwaffe, for their operations form the KM carrier.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2013, 06:16:57 PM by jag88 »
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Offline jag88

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Re: BF-109T
« Reply #25 on: February 27, 2013, 06:26:54 PM »
I bet it would be interesting to use the (just behind) leading edge air brake on those T2s in combat. Overshoots galore  :D

They were covered in the T2 and therefore unusable.
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