Author Topic: F-35 Fighters Are Grounded  (Read 7011 times)

Offline Mace2004

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Re: F-35 Fighters Are Grounded
« Reply #120 on: February 26, 2013, 04:24:49 PM »
The F-35A has better instantaneous and sustained turn rates than an F-16 carrying a war load. A clean F-16 in "air show mode" has a maximum sustained turn rate of 18 degrees per second. The F-35A carrying an A2A war load and full fuel has a sustained turn rate of 17 degrees per second. The F-35 has better acceleration and top speed than the F-16 carrying a war load, and that's with the F-35 carrying 3.5 times more internal fuel than the F-16. The F-16 is actually structurally limited to 4G's if carrying external fuel or bombs.

Having been through this before, this is an interesting and often overlooked aspect. It's true that you usually hear numbers that sound fabulous but don't relate to the real world and this can make comparison difficult.  For instance, when comparing the F-14D and F-18C, the F-18C outturns the F-14; however, this is slick, with no external stores and, in the case of the Hornet, the performance quoted are numbers obtained with its wing pylons removed.  Of course, the F-14 is much faster but it's easily outturned (if you fight the Hornet's fight but that's a different subject).  Of course neither airplane is of much use without weapons and fuel so what about what we call the "fleet" configuration?  How these planes will be loaded in the real world.  The Tomcat adds two relatively small external fuel tanks directly under the nacelles while the Hornet adds two, or even three relatively enormous external tanks with large pylons.  In this combat configuration the playing field is really leveled.  Even if both get rid of their external tanks the Hornet cannot dump it's pylons so is always compromised while the Tomcat, whose tank stub pylons aren't even noticable, is much cleaner.  The biggest difference then becomes the flying qualities and the Hornet wins this due to it's fly-by-wire design. 

These exact same questions are relevant now.  I don't know where you got these numbers but, if true, it sure seems that with equal loadouts the F-35 should out perform the F-16, especially given that it's weapons are internal rather than hanging out creating drag.  Also, there is the subjective issue of flying quality which can be very underrated.  From what I've heard the airplane is extremely easy to handle but I'm not sure how you could improve on the F-16's flying qualities which are also supurb and I don't know how easy the newer generations of potential adversaries handle.  I hear they're pretty good also so I have no idea how they would stack up.  Then there's another, somewhat philisophical question.  Do you make the plane turn or do you make the missiles turn?  Here would be an extreme example.  Suppose you had a stealth aircraft that couldn't turn real well but equip it with missiles that can be fired against targets anywhere in the vicinity (using the helmet mounted sight for instance) while the adversaries all have to pretty much turn their planes to launch their missiles at you.  Who's better off?  What if you can see a guy swinging your wingline for a rear quarter attack on you but, instead of just being able to see him you can launch a missile at him without ever having to turn or slow down?  Every time you think about going faster or turning tighter you put the technology into a missile and sling it on the same plane rather than redesign the plane for improved performance.  Kinda makes you think, doesn't it?  BTW, where did you get the performance numbers if you don't mind me asking?

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The F-35 can carry the AIM-9X Sidewinder and IRIS-T dogfight missiles. And, as you point out, it has a gun. This is one issue where Wheeler really shows how delusional he is, or more likely deliberately untruthful. The whole point of developing that fancy helmet is to guide those dogfight missiles.

I disregarded Wheeler when I watched one of the videos posted (the Australian one I believe).  Where he lost me is when he complained about the F-35's heavy computerization and how if the computers crashed the F-35 would just fall out of the sky.  I seem to recall a whole bunch of similar complaints about another new airplane.  What was that plane....OH, I remember, it was the F-16 which was the first totally fly-by-wire fighter in the world and, relatively speaking, was as heavily computerized for its time as the F-35 is for its.  The F-16 has no backups to the FBW, if the computers crash it'll crash.  WTH is this guy doing making such an argument?
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Offline rpm

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Re: F-35 Fighters Are Grounded
« Reply #121 on: February 26, 2013, 04:31:50 PM »
There's only one way to solve this. In the DA!
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Offline Bodhi

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Re: F-35 Fighters Are Grounded
« Reply #122 on: February 26, 2013, 04:40:26 PM »
Lies, Damn Lies, and the Trillion-Dollar F-35...

Bodhi, the oft-claimed program cost of more than a trillion Dollars is nothing more than BS from people who have little, or no idea of what they're talking about. The one+ trillion is the estimated lifetime cost of the program, not the procurement cost. Further more the number itself is hardly worth the paper it is printed on; it counts every possible cost to operate and modernize the F-35 during a 25-year production run, followed by a 30-year operational life. It represents a half-century’s worth of fuel, parts, upgrades, and even related ground infrastructure construction costs. However, the trillion dollar number is undeniably a useful stick with which to flog the F-35 and defense spending in general.

GS,
Those costs are real and they add up substantially.  Start realizing that the costs to operate and keep the aircraft relevant are going to be many times what the initial procurement of 2600 aircraft will cost the US.  That is around $312 Billion if the cost stays around $120 Million per unit.  When you also add in the additional technology that is not figured into those costs or the maintenance, spares, operational costs, and all aspects of what is needed to run those fighters, the costs are in the TRILLIONS.  That is real money.

Take another aspect.  The life cycle has recently been quoted as being less than half what it was anticipated to be.  So let's say these aircraft last 20 instead of 40 years.  What does that do for costs?  Especially when a replacement is needed in half the time as before? 

This is an colossally expensive endeavor.  One that needs to be more thoroughly vetted before the US spends the trillions it will require.

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Offline GScholz

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Re: F-35 Fighters Are Grounded
« Reply #123 on: February 26, 2013, 04:41:19 PM »
@Mace

At a seminar last year at our national aviation museum. Two officers from the RNoAF that are working with the F-35 program were giving a lecture on the F-35. I'm pretty fortunate for an aviation enthusiast, living in Bodø, Norway's "fighter town". Had the honor of meeting legendary test pilot Eric Brown back in 2007 and attending his lecture on the quest for speed during WWII and post-war.
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Offline GScholz

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Re: F-35 Fighters Are Grounded
« Reply #124 on: February 26, 2013, 04:45:19 PM »
GS,
Those costs are real and they add up substantially.  Start realizing that the costs to operate and keep the aircraft relevant are going to be many times what the initial procurement of 2600 aircraft will cost the US.  That is around $312 Billion if the cost stays around $120 Million per unit.  When you also add in the additional technology that is not figured into those costs or the maintenance, spares, operational costs, and all aspects of what is needed to run those fighters, the costs are in the TRILLIONS.  That is real money.

Take another aspect.  The life cycle has recently been quoted as being less than half what it was anticipated to be.  So let's say these aircraft last 20 instead of 40 years.  What does that do for costs?  Especially when a replacement is needed in half the time as before?  

This is an colossally expensive endeavor.  One that needs to be more thoroughly vetted before the US spends the trillions it will require.

Those expenses are irrelevant to this discussion since you would incur those expenses no matter what modern combat aircraft you operate. It will not be markedly cheaper to operate a similar sized fleet of F-16s or F-18s. And those jets are not even much cheaper to procure new either when you need to replace them.
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Offline Bodhi

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Re: F-35 Fighters Are Grounded
« Reply #125 on: February 26, 2013, 04:51:22 PM »
I have to disagree as they are very relevant considering the uncertainty of the F-35's performance and expectations.  Additionally, the "new" equipment and parts that are required for the F-35 are substantially more expensive than that of the legacy series that is currently in production.
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Offline GScholz

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Re: F-35 Fighters Are Grounded
« Reply #126 on: February 26, 2013, 04:56:10 PM »
What "uncertainty of the F-35's performance and expectations" are you referring to? It has been flying for more than five years already, and USAF pilots have begun training on it. How and what will make the F-35 "substantially more expensive" to operate?
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Offline Babalonian

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Re: F-35 Fighters Are Grounded
« Reply #127 on: February 26, 2013, 06:01:23 PM »
The F-35 in the year 20-teen I think is expensive but not overpriced.  You know what I do think is overpriced, though?  $3.50 loafs of bread and $4.50 gallons of milk and 87-octane.   

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Offline Bodhi

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Re: F-35 Fighters Are Grounded
« Reply #128 on: February 26, 2013, 06:25:18 PM »
What "uncertainty of the F-35's performance and expectations" are you referring to? It has been flying for more than five years already, and USAF pilots have begun training on it. How and what will make the F-35 "substantially more expensive" to operate?

There is plenty of uncertainty given that the aircraft has many systems that have yet to be integrated.  There are wing buffet issues still, CV hook issues, and a host of other issues.  For an aircraft that was originally going to be around $60 a copy and is now twice that without all the systems, I think it is prudent to be concerned.
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Offline Mace2004

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Re: F-35 Fighters Are Grounded
« Reply #129 on: February 26, 2013, 06:54:27 PM »
There is plenty of uncertainty given that the aircraft has many systems that have yet to be integrated.  There are wing buffet issues still, CV hook issues, and a host of other issues.  For an aircraft that was originally going to be around $60 a copy and is now twice that without all the systems, I think it is prudent to be concerned.

Prudent to be concerned?  Sure.  Hyperventilating about it as some folks are doing?  Nope.  

The problems I've heard about the plane are really no different than those seen during the development of any other high visibility aircraft develoment program.  "Experts" (many with agenda or simply there to make money as a talking head) come out of the woodwork, every problem becomes insurmountable, and the contractor and Pentagon are stupid (or crooks).  Remember when the big issue was that F-35B would burn holes in the flight deck?  I remember a big expose done by 60 minutes back in 1982 where they had an expert that said the Sparrow missile was no good because "it flew too fast."  Idiots.  The entire purpose of development is essentially to uncover problems and then fix them yet we have the Casandra's claiming that we're doomed every time developmental testing does what developmental testing is supposed to do, discover problems.  People may as well express shock that they get wet when they go out in the rain.  Most of the develoment progams I'm familiar with, and that's more than one or two, have had even more problems than the F-35 has.  All those airplanes that people say we should just keep building had problems, some, like the Hornet, many more problems than the F-35 has yet they turned out to be pretty good planes!  I still strongly disagree with the choice of a single engine for the Navy and we'll lose some jets over it but then they didn't ask me before they chose it!
« Last Edit: February 26, 2013, 06:57:33 PM by Mace2004 »
Mace
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Offline GScholz

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Re: F-35 Fighters Are Grounded
« Reply #130 on: February 26, 2013, 07:16:29 PM »
There is plenty of uncertainty given that the aircraft has many systems that have yet to be integrated.  There are wing buffet issues still, CV hook issues, and a host of other issues.  For an aircraft that was originally going to be around $60 a copy and is now twice that without all the systems, I think it is prudent to be concerned.

In case you haven't noticed, the unit flyaway cost is coming down now, not going up. By production lot 10 (they are at 5 now) they expect the unit flyaway cost to be in the $60-70 million range. I don't think they will ever cost just sixty bucks though, but maybe you'll get a very nice scale model for that. ;)
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Offline Bodhi

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Re: F-35 Fighters Are Grounded
« Reply #131 on: February 26, 2013, 07:39:57 PM »
Mace,
I agree.  Getting worked up over it is not going to change a thing.  What I do not like is the extravagance of the program at a time when we can not afford to meet all of our financial obligations.  That is of major importance.  Based on years of working in the aviation world, I have plenty of friends in the community as well and several (with no benefits to be made from a cancellation) are very concerned over performance and expectations and whether the aircraft will actually meet all of it's design criteria. 

My major drawback is overall cost.  We simply can not afford it at this time.  Should the project be cancelled?  No, but it should be curtailed until they are sure it will meet expectations and can remain within new projected costs.  As I mentioned before, this is no longer a $60 million per unit cost anymore.
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Offline Bodhi

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Re: F-35 Fighters Are Grounded
« Reply #132 on: February 26, 2013, 07:42:27 PM »
In case you haven't noticed, the unit flyaway cost is coming down now, not going up. By production lot 10 (they are at 5 now) they expect the unit flyaway cost to be in the $60-70 million range. I don't think they will ever cost just sixty bucks though, but maybe you'll get a very nice scale model for that. ;)

I can not agree with you.  The cost may have come down, but it is not with full systems yet, so how can you use it as a final number?  Here nor there, you have your beliefs that it is a great aircraft and will serve your country well.  I do not feel it is the aircraft we need, and I know it's cost will have a major negative impact on our defense capabilities in terms of ability to fund other projects for many years to come.
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Offline Masherbrum

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Re: F-35 Fighters Are Grounded
« Reply #133 on: February 26, 2013, 07:48:36 PM »
Mace,
I agree.  Getting worked up over it is not going to change a thing.  What I do not like is the extravagance of the program at a time when we can not afford to meet all of our financial obligations.  That is of major importance.  Based on years of working in the aviation world, I have plenty of friends in the community as well and several (with no benefits to be made from a cancellation) are very concerned over performance and expectations and whether the aircraft will actually meet all of it's design criteria. 

My major drawback is overall cost.  We simply can not afford it at this time.  Should the project be cancelled?  No, but it should be curtailed until they are sure it will meet expectations and can remain within new projected costs.  As I mentioned before, this is no longer a $60 million per unit cost anymore.

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Offline BaDkaRmA158Th

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Re: F-35 Fighters Are Grounded
« Reply #134 on: February 26, 2013, 09:00:04 PM »
I wonder if we can look back at any wwII fighters that promised exceptional speed handling and climb, but could not deliver such claims untill stronger engines came later in the war.

Or how many ran over projected cost. Something tell me..almost all of them?




But hey if wwIII brakes out cost wont matter. Anyhow whats your nations arses worth for protection in a time of war? Should be "Priceless"
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