Author Topic: F-35 Fighters Are Grounded  (Read 6942 times)

Offline Tank-Ace

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Re: F-35 Fighters Are Grounded
« Reply #165 on: February 27, 2013, 10:57:11 PM »
Doesn't matter what it started out as. US military gave requirements,  which gave us what we have now. Lockheed built it yo satisfy those requirements, and thus built it for the USA.

Granted they tried to make it sellable, but that doesn't change the fact that the US started the project.
You started this thread and it was obviously about your want and desire in spite of your use of 'we' and Google.

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Offline JunkyII

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Re: F-35 Fighters Are Grounded
« Reply #166 on: February 28, 2013, 12:57:26 AM »
This is most likely what we'll be doing in 3rd-world countries: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVJOOjUlGek
Ok now go on Youtube type in Strafing run....then count how many are A10s.....then compare that number to the rest of the birds :D

Set yourself up for failure in this debate, Green Berets get whatever they want :old: :D

From my personal experience in country

4 A10 gun runs (2 had multiple reattacks)
1 GPU from an F16
10-12 Kiowa/Apache engagements

As an Infantrymen on the ground, if you ask me what I want for CCA or CAS I'm going to say Pink Team (Kiowa low with Apache high behind) mainly because they have better eyes to get clear PID so they can engage. If I can't get them I'm asking for A10s because they can see better and get again...PID. If I'm calling in bombs on an enemy I can see, night time, he doesn't see me......then I'd rather have the high alt fast mover because the bad guys tend to run when an A10 is over head or a pink team is in play.

I think the ability to see an enemy from the sky trumps a lot in a third world environment where the enemy blends in.
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Offline Fish42

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Re: F-35 Fighters Are Grounded
« Reply #167 on: February 28, 2013, 02:15:47 AM »
Doesn't matter what it started out as. US military gave requirements,  which gave us what we have now. Lockheed built it yo satisfy those requirements, and thus built it for the USA.

Granted they tried to make it sellable, but that doesn't change the fact that the US started the project.

So your saying the other 7 countries who are putting money into this project should just be thankful the US is letting them have some? Because Merica!



Offline Gman

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Re: F-35 Fighters Are Grounded
« Reply #168 on: February 28, 2013, 02:37:11 AM »
Hey Junky, question for you.  I've seen a couple videos of F16's and one of an F15E doing strafing runs.  They usually only get about 3/4 of a second of fire on target by the looks and sounds of it, probably due to their high speed as you were saying.  This means less than 100 rounds, probably around 50 or 60 I would guess considering the spool time of the M161.

Question is this:  How effective was 50 or 60 rounds of 20mm on infantry targets in your AO when you were there, if you heard anything about this from others who had CAS strafe from 20mm equipped a/c?  Seeing the dispersion of the rounds in the videos that others were talking about, it doesn't look like a whole lot of saturation in the targeted area.  Is the effectiveness of this type of strafing with 20mm from tac fighters more of a "show of force" benefit than actually an effective killing weapon vs light infantry?  I have no formed opinion of this myself, just wondering what you as a soldier very familiar with air support versus enemy foot mobiles thinks.

After watching some of the AH64 videos of the M230 shooting those 10 to 20 rounds bursts, it's obvious that a hovering, stable platform like an attack helo with thermal sighting and computerized fire control is far superior to these fast jets strafing for CAS vs infantry, to the point of my questioning if 20mm from fast jets is effective whatsoever.  
« Last Edit: February 28, 2013, 02:42:10 AM by Gman »

Offline nrshida

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Re: F-35 Fighters Are Grounded
« Reply #169 on: February 28, 2013, 02:52:22 AM »
So your saying the other 7 countries who are putting money into this project should just be thankful the US is letting them have some? Because Merica!

 :rofl Be quiet Fish, don't back chat citizens of the Empire! Know your place and be grateful  :old:


I don't suppose you ever heard of the NATF?  That was to be the Navy's version of the F-22.  I saw little about it at the time but we did get to review the cockpit design.  It had a swing wing.  If you really look at the F-22 you can see how this would have been an easily adaptable design for variable geometry.  At first you have to wonder why this wouldn't be an option but it's not air-to-ground so wouldn't really answer all the mission requirements and I doubt it could be procured cheaper than the F-35.

I have seen the concept drawings but didn't read too much about it. I like the swing wing approach too as it does offer some advantages especially dealing with centre of pressure changes is supersonic flight and the differing need for lift and wing loading but there are further penalties such as additional mass and loss of internal space. I wonder with advancements in aerodynamics and especially flight control computers if swing wing has had its day. No doubt it would be more expensive but you are left with a single engine with the F-35 so it isn't a direct comparison.

I just wondered what your opinion was of the YF-23 prototype(!), since you didn't see the advantages of thrust vectoring or extreme manoeuvrability.



 
It seems to me that most non-US players critiquing the F-35 need to remember that the plane was designed for America first and foremost. The US operates with de facto air supremacy, a colossal number of aircraft,  given the price tag,  and simply staggering capacity for support and maintenance.

In a way Junior is right, the F-35 was designed as one part of a two component offensive air domination strategy compromised for and sold to nations which don't really have that requirement on an perpetually escalating price and diminishing performance to help pay for the development. But at least Mr. Scholz is happy, that's the main thing.  :banana:


I wonder though now that the US has gone 'all in' with these two aircraft, if we might see what has happened in the last four decades of ground war happening in the air: i.e. a superior force being undermined by a less well-equipped force employing guerrilla tactics. It's not a big stretch of the imagination to see how this could be done.


« Last Edit: February 28, 2013, 02:57:12 AM by nrshida »
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Offline BaDkaRmA158Th

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Re: F-35 Fighters Are Grounded
« Reply #170 on: February 28, 2013, 03:18:48 AM »
I wonder though now that the US has gone 'all in' with these two aircraft, if we might see what has happened in the last four decades of ground war happening in the air: i.e. a superior force being undermined by a less well-equipped force employing guerrilla tactics. It's not a big stretch of the imagination to see how this could be done.


When it comes to employing "guerrilla tactics" by any nation with aircraft, no aircraft is better suited right now to get that job done then the f-35 & F22.


But we have them unlike any other nation right now, save our allies soon. Just they have all been very naughty and had to be....grounded.


Couldn't resist.   :D
« Last Edit: February 28, 2013, 03:22:35 AM by BaDkaRmA158Th »
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Offline GScholz

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Re: F-35 Fighters Are Grounded
« Reply #171 on: February 28, 2013, 05:36:17 AM »
Ok now go on Youtube type in Strafing run....then count how many are A10s.....then compare that number to the rest of the birds :D

Set yourself up for failure in this debate, Green Berets get whatever they want :old: :D

From my personal experience in country

4 A10 gun runs (2 had multiple reattacks)
1 GPU from an F16
10-12 Kiowa/Apache engagements

As an Infantrymen on the ground, if you ask me what I want for CCA or CAS I'm going to say Pink Team (Kiowa low with Apache high behind) mainly because they have better eyes to get clear PID so they can engage. If I can't get them I'm asking for A10s because they can see better and get again...PID. If I'm calling in bombs on an enemy I can see, night time, he doesn't see me......then I'd rather have the high alt fast mover because the bad guys tend to run when an A10 is over head or a pink team is in play.

I think the ability to see an enemy from the sky trumps a lot in a third world environment where the enemy blends in.

I'm not sure whet you're trying to say. My country has never operated A-10s...
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Offline GScholz

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Re: F-35 Fighters Are Grounded
« Reply #172 on: February 28, 2013, 05:51:01 AM »
In a way Junior is right, the F-35 was designed as one part of a two component offensive air domination strategy compromised for and sold to nations which don't really have that requirement on an perpetually escalating price and diminishing performance to help pay for the development. But at least Mr. Scholz is happy, that's the main thing.  :banana:

Whenever America goes to war it is invariably her carrier forces that first enter the fray. The F-35 will be the USN's only stealth aircraft, and it will have to do everything. That's the kind of aircraft that appeals to nations that can only afford to operate a small air force.

Oh, and Israel, Canada and Norway are getting custom versions specially adapted to our needs. In our case that means drag chutes for landing on short icy runways.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2013, 06:06:36 AM by GScholz »
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Offline Mace2004

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Re: F-35 Fighters Are Grounded
« Reply #173 on: February 28, 2013, 06:36:54 AM »
I have seen the concept drawings but didn't read too much about it. I like the swing wing approach too as it does offer some advantages especially dealing with centre of pressure changes is supersonic flight and the differing need for lift and wing loading but there are further penalties such as additional mass and loss of internal space. I wonder with advancements in aerodynamics and especially flight control computers if swing wing has had its day. No doubt it would be more expensive but you are left with a single engine with the F-35 so it isn't a direct comparison.

I just wondered what your opinion was of the YF-23 prototype(!), since you didn't see the advantages of thrust vectoring or extreme manoeuvrability.

Now THIS is an airplane that would have made my heart go pitter patter:



Surprisingly enough the swing wing had only two real drawbacks and those are complexity and cost.  When an airplane is built around the wing (I mean designed from the beginning to be variable geometry) like the F-14 was you really don't compromise internal space much.  In both the Tomcat and Aardvark, the wing and wing mechanism is a flat structure that "sits" across the back of the plane.  If you were to remove the entire system from the plane it essentially was a very broad but flat package so pretty space efficient.  The F-14 carried the majority of its load in the tunnel between the two engine nacelles.  This space could have easily be enclosed to include a quite spacious internal bay.  The main reason the plane was as big as it was was the radar, Phoenix missile, two-seat cockpit and fuel.  You could argue that the wing sweep mechanism still took up some space, and it did, but the swing wing itself made the airplane more efficient and it required less fuel due to it.  For instance, on CAP you just throttle back and put the wings out at 20deg and the high-aspect ratio let you loiter around at very low throttle settings.  This efficiency extended to ACM where, with the wings out, the airplane could sustain turns against airplanes such as the F-15 with better trust to weight ratios.

Now, the biggest and most common argument against variable geometry is the claim that it makes the plane heavier.  This is not true, it actually makes the plane lighter.  While everyone was in an uproar about the cost of the plane (the most expensive fighter ever built at the time) Grumman designed an alternative variation with an F-15 style fixed wing.  In order to make the wing big enough and add the complex high lift devices such as fowler flaps (the F-14 had simple and light slats and slotted flaps) so the plane could operate from a CV the airplane weighed more and could carry less.  Also, a common criticism was that the plane was too big but comepare it with the F-22.  Kinda makes you go "hummmm."



I'm not sure what you mean about the F-23 WRT to thrust vectoring.  It had vectoring just like the 22.  Overall, I think it's a great idea and it makes the plane more nimble (able to change directions or "point" more quickly) but it comes at a cost as well.  I had a chance to see both the YF-22 and YF-23 together at Edwards during at the beginning of the fly-off between them.  The YF-23 looked absolutely enormous compared to the 22 but some of that was the "V" tail and the fact it was painted black.  I'd have sworn you could have played soccer on the back of the thing.  Again, I don't have anything against things like thrust vectoring or post-stall maneuvering, I'd love to have every toy out there but I just question the tactical utility of such features for the majority of scenarios and cost.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2013, 06:46:13 AM by Mace2004 »
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Offline GScholz

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Re: F-35 Fighters Are Grounded
« Reply #174 on: February 28, 2013, 06:50:36 AM »
I've always loved variable geometry aircraft, and that's stunningly beautiful. I was one of the few people who actually liked the 2005 film "Stealth", and it was all because of that awesome variable geometry futuristic carrier jet... And Jessica Biel of course... ;)
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Offline JunkyII

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Re: F-35 Fighters Are Grounded
« Reply #175 on: February 28, 2013, 09:47:46 AM »
GMan, my biggest thing is that the fast movers need to be talked in onto target a lot more prior to getting them cleared hot. I'm sure they still get goods effects on target but an Apache has a lot of advantages being able to slowly bank and fire.
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Offline danny76

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Re: F-35 Fighters Are Grounded
« Reply #176 on: February 28, 2013, 10:25:06 AM »
GMan, my biggest thing is that the fast movers need to be talked in onto target a lot more prior to getting them cleared hot. I'm sure they still get goods effects on target but an Apache has a lot of advantages being able to slowly bank and fire.

Haven't seen 20mm impacts, but 30mm fired in the direct role from Scimitars against personnel make a strong impression.
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Offline GScholz

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Re: F-35 Fighters Are Grounded
« Reply #177 on: February 28, 2013, 11:35:22 AM »
Here's the gun in question with regard to the F-35. An upgraded 25 mm GAU-12 (also used on the AV-8 and AC-130).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O15mW2CN06U

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Oz66PDE8w8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSTB7U_qlTM


As for the effect of 20 mm strafing, judge for yourself: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iy9VPTWyLh0
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Offline danny76

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Re: F-35 Fighters Are Grounded
« Reply #178 on: February 28, 2013, 01:02:04 PM »
Here's the gun in question with regard to the F-35. An upgraded 25 mm GAU-12 (also used on the AV-8 and AC-130).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O15mW2CN06U

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Oz66PDE8w8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSTB7U_qlTM


As for the effect of 20 mm strafing, judge for yourself: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iy9VPTWyLh0

I meant first person, that was impressive nevertheless
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Offline bozon

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Re: F-35 Fighters Are Grounded
« Reply #179 on: February 28, 2013, 02:04:32 PM »
Hey Junky, question for you.  I've seen a couple videos of F16's and one of an F15E doing strafing runs.  They usually only get about 3/4 of a second of fire on target by the looks and sounds of it, probably due to their high speed as you were saying.  This means less than 100 rounds, probably around 50 or 60 I would guess considering the spool time of the M161.

Question is this:  How effective was 50 or 60 rounds of 20mm on infantry targets in your AO when you were there, if you heard anything about this from others who had CAS strafe from 20mm equipped a/c?  Seeing the dispersion of the rounds in the videos that others were talking about, it doesn't look like a whole lot of saturation in the targeted area.  Is the effectiveness of this type of strafing with 20mm from tac fighters more of a "show of force" benefit than actually an effective killing weapon vs light infantry?  I have no formed opinion of this myself, just wondering what you as a soldier very familiar with air support versus enemy foot mobiles thinks.

After watching some of the AH64 videos of the M230 shooting those 10 to 20 rounds bursts, it's obvious that a hovering, stable platform like an attack helo with thermal sighting and computerized fire control is far superior to these fast jets strafing for CAS vs infantry, to the point of my questioning if 20mm from fast jets is effective whatsoever.  
I can't answer for Junky, but here is what the IAF thinks about jet strafing: don't do it. It is not worth the risk. The damage is low and every schmo with an AK47 can shoot a 50 mil$ plane down. The only time what it is worth considering is when you WANT everyone to shoot at the jet, instead of at a more vulnerable/valuable target that is coming in. Those occasions are very rare and the jet does not have to hit anything - it will either make the enemy duck and bury his face in the sand, or focus its attention completely on the strafing plane. Either way it get the intended result. Damage is not required, so the gun does not matter. The cannon is there to shoot planes down.

You have to remember that the #1 cause of battle loss is projectiles from the ground. Not enemy planes, not SAMs, not shoulder missiles. The one thing that should be avoided at all costs is to fly low over the target.

Whenever America goes to war it is invariably her carrier forces that first enter the fray. The F-35 will be the USN's only stealth aircraft, and it will have to do everything. That's the kind of aircraft that appeals to nations that can only afford to operate a small air force.

Oh, and Israel, Canada and Norway are getting custom versions specially adapted to our needs. In our case that means drag chutes for landing on short icy runways.
Israel had two major reasons to invest in the F-35: one is that the US will not sell the F-22 to Israel. Israel has a use for a stealth fighter/attacker given the history of various nuclear facilities, factories and weapons shipments exploding mysteriously in neighboring countries that have full soviet air defense systems and airforces. So far, F-16s F15s in combination with special means achieved stealth. A true stealth fighter/bomber can probably make it easier.

The second reason is that it was a rare opportunity for the Israeli airforce and industry to request modification in the development stage. Usually Israel gets a stock fighter, then would like to pull out a lot of junk that comes with it and insert its own sh** and gizmos instead. Sometimes the US allows (when their industry is desperate enough) modifications at the production line. Sometimes not and then the IAF and industry have to work around the original, which is less than ideal.

Many are not happy in IAF about the decision to invest in the F-35.
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