Author Topic: Hurricane  (Read 1805 times)

Offline TeeArr

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Hurricane
« on: February 23, 2013, 07:48:30 PM »
Since when did the Hurricane shed flight control surfaces in a dive?  It has happened to me three times, all of them with engine at Idle and at a 45 degree angle or less.  There were no inputs to my control surfaces...they just departed the aircraft.  Is the Hurricane only meant to be used as a low level defensive gamepiece?

Offline RedBull1

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Re: Hurricane
« Reply #1 on: February 23, 2013, 08:05:39 PM »
Neither the angle at which you dive nor your throttle setting matter, if you were going over the Hurricanes maximum speed, it will lose parts.

Also, the Hurricane was exactly that in WWII, to defend Britain, not to attack germany (generally)
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Offline Reaper90

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Re: Hurricane
« Reply #2 on: February 23, 2013, 08:43:51 PM »
Thought you were gone from the game.  :noid
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Offline Lusche

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Re: Hurricane
« Reply #3 on: February 23, 2013, 09:04:33 PM »
Since when did the Hurricane shed flight control surfaces in a dive? 

Since it was remodeled :)
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Offline SmokinLoon

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Re: Hurricane
« Reply #4 on: February 23, 2013, 09:39:35 PM »
Hurri I had canvass control surfaces, yes?  What about Hurri IIx and Sea Hurricane?

I can see how the Hurricane frame would not take the extreme stress, it was an older airframe and meant for air to air combat and that usually did not consist if high speeds.  There is a reason that during the 1930's and early 1940's the fighters were only fighters and were not used interchangeably with dive bombing: the fighters couldn't handle the stress.

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Offline Krusty

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Re: Hurricane
« Reply #5 on: February 23, 2013, 09:56:31 PM »
canvas covered flight surfaces often reduced control effectiveness at high speeds...

They didn't pop off!

IMO HTC is taking this the wrong way when they do that. Make them react less, make them lock up, make them compress, but to have them "pop off" is utter nonsense and shouldn't be put in the game like that.

Offline SkyRock

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Re: Hurricane
« Reply #6 on: February 23, 2013, 10:00:12 PM »
I've read where hurris lost control surfaces in dives... aluminum rudder, and such..

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Offline Krusty

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Re: Hurricane
« Reply #7 on: February 23, 2013, 10:42:47 PM »
I've read where hurris lost control surfaces in dives... aluminum rudder, and such..

Got any kind of reference or link for that?

There are stories of planes diving so fast they wrinkle the metal on the wings and shred the gearbox behind the prop blades, but they don't lose control surfaces. The fact that the controls were fabric covered doesn't mean they were wrapped in cotton T-shirts. It was a tough material stretched very taught, doped to string it tight as possible. The frame underneath was strong. What happened was the surface tension of the skin was overcome by the airflow over it, and they would flap, or ripple, at extreme speeds.

If a hurricane lost the control surface in a dive, it means the entire thing was weakened, down to the hinges and the frame underneath. I find that unlikely. Even in the most extreme I'd expect only to have the fabric lose effectiveness (not give you the flight control input you want) as it sags under pressure, or to simply rip the material.

Offline Mace2004

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Re: Hurricane
« Reply #8 on: February 23, 2013, 10:58:31 PM »
canvas covered flight surfaces often reduced control effectiveness at high speeds...

They didn't pop off!

IMO HTC is taking this the wrong way when they do that. Make them react less, make them lock up, make them compress, but to have them "pop off" is utter nonsense and shouldn't be put in the game like that.

Have you never heard of flutter?  Flight control surfaces most definently will depart an aircraft if high-speed results in flutter.  Remember Jimmy Leeward's P-51 at Reno last year?  Flutter.  I have no evidence that the Hurricane ever experienced it but I see no reason it wouldn't be as susceptable as any other aircraft.
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Offline Krusty

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Re: Hurricane
« Reply #9 on: February 23, 2013, 11:03:10 PM »
Apples and Oranges.

Offline Mace2004

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Re: Hurricane
« Reply #10 on: February 23, 2013, 11:10:59 PM »
Apples and Oranges.

Apples and apples.  The Hurricane dives to fast, has flutter, looses control surfaces.  There are no Oranges here.
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Offline Krusty

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Re: Hurricane
« Reply #11 on: February 24, 2013, 01:03:35 AM »
Not even. Leeward's P-51 didn't lose control surfaces. They used bad locknuts on his trimtab.

Flutter is one thing. Flutter is vibrations oscillating back and forth. What happened to Leeward wasn't "flutter" ... It was sudden loss of trim which caused massive Gs.



I've read it elsewhere, when the crash just happened, but first google result that comes up is wiki so here's the copy and paste:

Quote
The NTSB thoroughly investigated the extensive modifications made to the airplane. The modifications had made the aircraft lighter and reduced drag, but decreased stability. Leeward took the plane to 530 mph during the race, about 40 mph faster than he had ever gone before.[24] There was evidence of extreme stress on the airframe demonstrated by buckling of the fuselage aft of the wing and gaps appearing between the fuselage and the canopy during flight (clearly visible in high resolution photographs taken by spectators). However, the investigation (released in August 2012) found that probable cause of the crash was old reused locknuts in the left elevator trim tab system that loosened. This led to a fatigue crack in an attachment screw and allowed the trim tab to flutter. This flutter caused the trim tab link assembly to fail which led to loss of control of the aircraft. Untested and undocumented modifications to the airplane contributed to the accident. Particularly, the right trim tab had been fixed in place. Had both trim tabs been operational, the loss of the left trim tab may not have alone caused loss of control. When the trim tab failed, Leeward was exposed to 17Gs which quickly incapacitated him and likely rendered him unconscious.


EDIT: P.S. There's a MASSIVE difference between trim tabs and their attachment points vs the entire control surface.

Just so you're not confusing one for the other, this is a trim tab:

« Last Edit: February 24, 2013, 01:07:21 AM by Krusty »

Offline Mace2004

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Re: Hurricane
« Reply #12 on: February 24, 2013, 03:21:14 AM »
Not even. Leeward's P-51 didn't lose control surfaces. They used bad locknuts on his trimtab.

Flutter is one thing. Flutter is vibrations oscillating back and forth. What happened to Leeward wasn't "flutter" ... It was sudden loss of trim which caused massive Gs.
I've read it elsewhere, when the crash just happened, but first google result that comes up is wiki so here's the copy and paste:

EDIT: P.S. There's a MASSIVE difference between trim tabs and their attachment points vs the entire control surface.

Just so you're not confusing one for the other, this is a trim tab:

(Image removed from quote.)

Well, thanks for the lecture and pretty picture Krusty but I think I know a little bit about airplanes and you are still wrong.  Here's the part of your own quote that you seem to have missed:

Quote
This led to a fatigue crack in an attachment screw and allowed the trim tab to flutter. This flutter caused the trim tab link assembly to fail which led to loss of control of the aircraft

The P-51 was lost due to flutter.  It's not a debatable subject, it's a simple fact.  The proximate cause of the mishap was old locknuts but the failure mode was flutter just as the quote you provided says.  Something like old locknuts may seem a surprising cause of flutter but even things as simple and varied as worn out bushings or even too much paint buildup can cause it.  Causes also include lots of other stuff like incorrectly rigged, weighted, or balanced control surfaces all the way up to insufficient structural rigidity and damping leading to aeroelastic motions of an entire wing surface.  Flutter is an extremely dangerous aerodynamic factor that has been known for a long, long time and it can, and has, lead to catastrophic failure. The faster you are the more likely it is you'll excite flutter and more damage will be done because of the greatly increased amounts of energy available.  In the P-51's case the trim tab was loose and began to flutter causing it to fail which resulted in loss of control due to untrimmed aerodynamic loads on the horizontal elevator at high speed.  

The fact that it was a the trim tab that failed due to flutter and not the entire elevator in this case is irrelevant.  It's a great example of how the failure of even a small part can cause a catastrophic outcome but entire control surfaces, stabilizers, tails and even wings can be lost and because flutter is directly related to speed it's one of the primary limitations that can define an aircraft's Never Exceed Speed (Vne), in other words, your dive speed.  When I was at Pax River a friend of mine was doing the flight tests on the Navy's new E-6 (known as Looking Glass) which was a militarized version of the Boeing 707.  During the tests they did a Vne test by diving the plane and in spite of all the engineering analysis, careful test planning for safety, and instrumentation specifically designed to detect flutter before it could do any damage they lost the entire rudder.  There is absolutely zero doubt that flutter during a high-speed dive can cause the loss of a control surface.  I won't even caveat that statement with "in my opinion" because it's a simple, established, and well known fact.  It's such a well known fact that every airplane built has to go through flutter testing because of the danger.  The probability that a Hurricane would experience flutter in a high speed dive beyond Vne leading to catastrophic failure is right at 100%.  What part that would fail is harder to say, it could be ailerons, rudder or even an entire stabilizer or wing but having the elevators fail is perfectly reasonable.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2013, 03:40:45 AM by Mace2004 »
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Offline nrshida

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Re: Hurricane
« Reply #13 on: February 24, 2013, 03:53:40 AM »
Just so you're not confusing one for the other, this is a trim tab:

Yes Mace, pay attention! Do you even know the difference between a wing and a wingnut?  :old:

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Offline danny76

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Re: Hurricane
« Reply #14 on: February 24, 2013, 05:04:50 AM »
In Ira Jones book Tiger Squadron, he refers to Hurri 1's routinely diving to 500mph and Spit 1's exceeding 550. He doesnt mention bits dropping off. :headscratch:
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