FSO is about who you know not what you know

[hammer]

A much as I hate to say it, I think we are seeing a manifestation of "Misery loves company".

Regards,

Hammer

[Ruah]

this is an odd thread really - since there is an accusation with no substantial proof to back any claim, a fundamental lack in finding a solution to the perceive problem, and finally a steadfast refusal to see reason in any of the answers given.


“To the man who is afraid everything rustles.”  Sophocles

[phatzo]

meh, you guys can flame me all you want.

Ironic considering in response to Dantoo's post

Never got a side I didn't like.

Never got a ride I wasn't happy with.

All is well in the Universe.  /close thread


 Thumbs UP!

you said

go troll somewhere else cool guy.

Last Friday was the first time in four years of flying FSO with 9GIAP that we actually had or historic ride, the LA5fn. We are a smallish squad and have fun with whatever ride we get, we circumnavigate tough calls with good planning within our mission parameters, fly disciplined and most of us land most of the time. Dantoo's post was no troll but merely stating it how it is, we have fun no matter what and try to use our heads when things look grim. <S> Sir please think about this and maybe ask yourself what you could do different to make it more enjoyable for your selves as we all hate to lose an FSO squad.

[pops57]

The large squads run as squads. They do not want to be split up and that's not going to happen. Mandating that is a non-starter and is anathema to the entire concept of FSO.

Proving the point that large squads do indeed get pref. treatment in consideration of what they want, etc. Because they don't wana do it, really! I get they want to be together/cohesion/effectiveness/etc. But anathema to the concept ,gota call foul on that. You still score totals as your group, you still have missions, you still fly with some of your squadies, and you still fly with unknowns and you only have to do this split sometimes not all the time. Solves the issue of small squads not getting the hot ships/missions because of big squads and lets the big squads learn/teach as well. Does nothing for allied/axis rotations of course.

[Shifty]

Proving the point that large squads do indeed get pref. treatment in consideration of what they want, etc. Because they don't wana do it, really! I get they want to be together/cohesion/effectiveness/etc. But anathema to the concept ,gota call foul on that. You still score totals as your group, you still have missions, you still fly with some of your squadies, and you still fly with unknowns and you only have to do this split sometimes not all the time. Solves the issue of small squads not getting the hot ships/missions because of big squads and lets the big squads learn/teach as well. Does nothing for allied/axis rotations of course.

Where are you guys getting the smaller squads get treated with less respect than larger ones? In fact there are 28 small squads squadrons operating in the FSO. So far it is two of these squadrons complaining. One failed to update its ride request so getting bombers is more your own fault than it was the CiCs. The other squad is upset because it had to fly Axis and wants to implement a plan where they would end up flying Axis more. This would also effect the other 26 small squads that are not complaining and all the other medium and large squads as well. Its like tearing the bottom out of a sinking ship so the water will drain. Except for a couple of years in a large squad every FSO squad I've been in has been less than 10.  We may not have always got the exact plane we wanted but we got good planes. You would have less to complain about if you took the time to update your side and ride request and communicate with the other squadrons for whatever side you're flying with. Your squadron's success is your responsibility not the responsibility of everybody else.

[Krusty]

Stampf, you misunderstand me.

Please bear in mind I'm not lumping myself in with the folks whining that they don't get the ride they want.

What I'm saying is that I have personally observed that the entire FSO frame can be heavily unbalanced by a big land-slide of cons steamrolling smaller ones. This happens primarily when a mega-skwad is in play. Be it on our side or on "their" side, either way it's almost always a massacre no matter what the mission is.

Numbers make a big differenec, regardless of whatever the ride or mission is.

You can't put 30 players on a mission and hope to have a fair and balanced mission on the other side. They simply can't afford 30 players to counter it, and furthermore don't know when and where said mega squad will be used.

Break them up. I know you've built your squad from a small handful into what you have today, and that's a good thing. I'm not saying you don't have the rights of any other squad in FSO. I'm not saying you get preferential treatment. I am just saying when the skies are full of a single group, no matter what side or what mission or what plane, it's detrimental to the FSO experience overall. So, say it's not a hard-limit at 12 players. Say it's an arbitrary number in the range of 12-20 players. If you have enough players to field 2 squadrons inside this range, you ought to make a "flight A" and a "flight B" -- just so that organizationally you can be dispersed around the map better.

I know it's not going to be a popular request among the few squadrons that would actually be affected, but frankly I think it would be a good idea.

[Devil 505]

Its like tearing the bottom out of a sinking ship so the water will drain.

This is the best analogy Ive ever heard. 

Also, I agree with the rest of what you said.

[Drano]

Never got a side I didn't like.

Never got a ride I wasn't happy with.

All is well in the Universe.  /close thread


 

Ya know I couldn't agree with this more. And I always thought you were pretty cool too. Dantoo


I've been reading this thread and it's left me shaking my head. All this griping about what plane you get or what side you're on. Really Vudu? It's FSO. There's nobody here that's gotten the side or plane they asked for each and every frame or even most of the time. That's just crazy to think it's so and the facts don't support it. I can also say to not only you but anyone else that if you're THAT hung up on what you're flying or what side you're flying on you're probably wrong for FSO. It's about teamwork and the mission here--nothing else. You should be able to carry that out using any plane in the inventory. I've flown frames in Tempests and gotten killed. I've flown some in Stukas and lived. Go figure. In the MA I fly with a bunch of P-38 whackos (myself included) but welcome the oppurtunity to fly something different for a different purpose. Christ it's three nights a month!

I can talk to this because I've been doing this flying in events thing a long, long time going back into Air Warrior and I've been a squad leader in FSO for many a year and side CO for many a frame. As CO I'd take the smaller squads and assign them together in effect making one bigger squad. Putting too many together creates problems of it's own--usually of communication and command. It is what it is dude. Ya just can't make a 12 plane squad out of a 4 plane squad. You can't assign a 4 plane group to do the job of a 12 plane group. The frame objectives pretty much dictate what has to happen insofar as the missions go. To think otherwise, like there's some big conspiracy in order to get "recognition", is just silly. As one of the XOs for my squad I get the objectives and orders every week and this is pretty much what I'm seeing from the other COs too. My old squad, The Damned, dates back to AW and was once like the Borg. It ebbed and flowed and finally I had to pull the plug on our FSO participation because it came down to myself and another guy, maybe a third week in and week out. We didn't get the high value assignments and understandably (for us anyway) so because of it. There were weeks when I had something going on in RL that nobody showed. I knew having been frame CO what a PITA it is to plan a frame let alone have to deal with one of the smaller squads that is just about a no-show leaving a gaping hole in your plan as the frame is starting. I couldn't let us, with all our history, be that guy--so I folded the squad in FSO. It sucked, but it was the right thing to do. But ya know, when we were the big squad, I don't remember having any special influence as to which side or what we were flying. We got what we got like everyone else and looked forward to the next frame.

Problem solved tho. Those of us that wanted to keep flying in FSO found another squad. It just so happened the 412th was going through a similar problem at the time and needed some extra bodies. So we joined with them. But ya know what? They're still just a medium sized squad and month to month we take whatever side we get and fly whatever plane and mission we're assigned and we always have a good time--which I thought was the idea. Straighten me out on that if I've got it wrong.

Perhaps if some of you guys are flying in a 4 guy squad you might consider banding together if only just for FSO. It's fun flying with guys from other squads that you might not otherwise fly with. Even your hated enemas sometimes.

[pops57]

Where are you guys getting the smaller squads get treated with less respect than larger ones? In fact there are 28 small squads squadrons operating in the FSO. So far it is two of these squadrons complaining. One failed to update its ride request so getting bombers is more your own fault than it was the CiCs. The other squad is upset because it had to fly Axis and wants to implement a plan where they would end up flying Axis more. This would also effect the other 26 small squads that are not complaining and all the other medium and large squads as well. Its like tearing the bottom out of a sinking ship so the water will drain. Except for a couple of years in a large squad every FSO squad I've been in has been less than 10.  We may not have always got the exact plane we wanted but we got good planes. You would have less to complain about if you took the time to update your side and ride request and communicate with the other squadrons for whatever side you're flying with. Your squadron's success is your responsibility not the responsibility of everybody else.

I'm just stirring the pot to keep the ideas flowing. There are 9 pages so far and I would think whether real or percieved the issues are best served when talked out. By the way I personally have little issue with any of this I just think discussion is benificial. I fly in a small squad and we do as instructed.  

[Hopper]

Stampf, you misunderstand me.

Please bear in mind I'm not lumping myself in with the folks whining that they don't get the ride they want.

What I'm saying is that I have personally observed that the entire FSO frame can be heavily unbalanced by a big land-slide of cons steamrolling smaller ones. This happens primarily when a mega-skwad is in play. Be it on our side or on "their" side, either way it's almost always a massacre no matter what the mission is.

Numbers make a big differenec, regardless of whatever the ride or mission is.

You can't put 30 players on a mission and hope to have a fair and balanced mission on the other side. They simply can't afford 30 players to counter it, and furthermore don't know when and where said mega squad will be used.

Break them up. I know you've built your squad from a small handful into what you have today, and that's a good thing. I'm not saying you don't have the rights of any other squad in FSO. I'm not saying you get preferential treatment. I am just saying when the skies are full of a single group, no matter what side or what mission or what plane, it's detrimental to the FSO experience overall. So, say it's not a hard-limit at 12 players. Say it's an arbitrary number in the range of 12-20 players. If you have enough players to field 2 squadrons inside this range, you ought to make a "flight A" and a "flight B" -- just so that organizationally you can be dispersed around the map better.

I know it's not going to be a popular request among the few squadrons that would actually be affected, but frankly I think it would be a good idea.

Using similar logic I would say making the smaller squads band together to form medium size squads would be beneficial.  But forcing your idea or mine would take freedom of choosing who they fly with away from squads.  Not good.

[Krusty]

Hopper, that doesn't seem to work, in practice. More times than not when you combine smaller groups it leads to delays, breakdowns in communication, or bad timing getting them together, just to form up to get the job done. Meanwhile all the larger groups have forged on without them.

For example, I can recall many times when USMC was low on numbers and tasked to joint duty with another squad. The two of us together both didn't equal the forces we had to defend against, or attack, or whatever. However, we had to work much harder just to coordinate (especially if there are rendezvous points, taking off from different fields, or any other number of bottlenecks).

[Hopper]

Hopper, that doesn't seem to work, in practice. More times than not when you combine smaller groups it leads to delays, breakdowns in communication, or bad timing getting them together, just to form up to get the job done. Meanwhile all the larger groups have forged on without them.

For example, I can recall many times when USMC was low on numbers and tasked to joint duty with another squad. The two of us together both didn't equal the forces we had to defend against, or attack, or whatever. However, we had to work much harder just to coordinate (especially if there are rendezvous points, taking off from different fields, or any other number of bottlenecks).

Not if you were 1 squad instead of 2, was my point.  Basically you are forcing larger squads to break into 2 smaller squads for ease of orders, why not take 2 smaller squads and force them into 1 squad for ease of orders?  Why not, because we show up on Friday nights to fly with our friends and we chose not to and honestly I doubt you would see a difference in either scenario.

[Bannor]

FATE squad has been in FSO for about 10 years until recently. Started out as a medium squad and had to adjust down to a smaller squad. It was a struggle even then to maintain our numbers so we had an invite from the 412th to blend ours with them and another squad and it has worked out well for all of us so that we can maintain our pilot committment. As CO of FATE we took whatever ride we were given and gave it our best to accomplish our mission. Last week the 412th was given the IL2. Frankly, I really dont like it that much but you suck it up and do your best regardless. The boss came up with a great plan to get us in there. We still got knocked around a bit but we did the best we could.

I'm not adding anything new to this conversation. Sometimes ya got to blow off a little steam and that's ok. Focus a bit more on the positives from the folks who have been doing this for awhile and throw out the personal attacks if you can. If you truly believe that this event leans heavily on cronyism then I fear you will find no joy in spending your Friday nights with what I deem to be some great people, and yes a few jerks sprinkled in. Almost like real life, really. We all make our own path in this world. Whatever your decision, good luck. 

Bannor

[Krusty]

Not if you were 1 squad instead of 2, was my point.

I guess I wasn't really talking about breaking up the squad like you might be. I suppose that's a major source for the discontent on the matter. Say you had an FSO participation of 30 players... Knowing in advance you would divide this up into 2 equal units of 15, all you would have to do is assign a senior officer, somebody that can command, to the second unit. Perhaps even have them use different vox. That's the only thing the big squad has to do. FSO planner treats it like 2 squads of 15 and assigns them to separate tasks.

On that topic, though: When you break a larger group into smaller groups, you still have a solid command structure. You still have wingmen that know each other and work well together. When you combine multiple units into one you run into many more problems than when you break them down. It's just the way it works. You have to run into personalities that may not get along, or flying style that doesn't mesh, or any number of things that a larger group has already dealt with and worked out in the years of their existence.

If the only argument is that you want to fly with a massive group of friendlies (and I say this only to make a point, I know that isn't the case with you), well I can see a lot of holes in that argument.

[Hopper]

I'm using 20 in a squad as a more realistic number, if there were a few squads that had 30 on a regular basis I would see your point but there is not any to my knowledge.  There are a handful that field 20 on a regular basis give or take 5.  Claim jumpers might push high 20's regularly, but they are the only 1 i can think of.

Given that 300 a night for FSO is a close average and there are usually 4 attack objectives and 4 defending objectives.  300/8=37.5 per engagement works out perfect.  So a squad of 20 would get an assignment alone just like JG-11 did friday night and KN, numbers still work out great as far as I see it.