A question, and I hope Guppy shows up

[Angus]

I am exploring allied losses in 1944. The frame is:
Allied Aircraft losses in connection to the Normandy Campaign from June 6th to the Falaise pocket August 21st 1944.
I am helping a friend of mine, who is puzzled by the staggering numbers of allied losses in this period. 4.000 + was one he found, - but alas, - the internet is not always 100% reliable, so I call upon you wizards in the forum to lend aid on this.
I did mention Guppy (Dan), for he has always been up to the game with incredibly good data.

[Hajo]

Angus. go to the 8th Air Force website.  They will have US numbers for you, maybe RAF also.

I do know for a fact that in 1944 the Allies suffered horrible casualties.  In 1944 the Luftwaffe

produced more aircraft then any other year of the war.  Incredible numbers considering the

around the clock bombing.  In 1944 they were beginning to suffer Pilot shortages.

[MiloMorai]

Angus, http://lesbutler.co.uk/claims/tonywood.htm

It lists all the Lw claims.

[Shifty]

Angus you might check 9th AF lossses as well as 8th. They were doing a lot of the ground attack missions in Normandy. I'm not suprised the numbers were high, ground attack was a very nasty business for all involved.

[Guppy35]

What you want are the books by John Foremen.  I have his volume that covers June 1 to June 30th 1944.  It lists all Allied losses to all causes as well as claims.  300 + pages.  In today's world absolutely staggering losses.  Overwhelmingly the losses were to Flak while flying ground attack in support of the invasion.

I can't find an exact total of the losses for the month of June as he lists them daily with squadron and pilot name, but he has April and May broken down and I counted April and it was over 700 losses and they weren't covering ground troops.

[Guppy35]

Foreman lists the order of battle for the Allies on the eve of D-Day.  The RAF had 68 squadrons of Spitfires, 36 squadrons of Mossies, 20 of Tiffies and Tempest, 60 of Lancs or Halifax and the list goes on.  USAAF had 17 groups of Jugs totaling 51 squadrons.  16 groups of 51s or 38s totaling 48 squadrons, 38 groups of 17s or 24s and on and on.

Again the total of sorties the Allies could generate was staggering.  It's hard to even imagine how crowded the skies were in the summer of 44 in the ETO.

[MiloMorai]

Angus, you might want to check the US Statistical Digest. Sorry, no link.

All kinds of info.

[Guppy35]

Looking through the books a bit at the numbers for June 6th alone.

8th Air Force dispatched:
-4792 aircraft that day fighters and bombers in support of the invasion

9th Air Force dispatched:
-1662 transports and 512 gliders
-3342 bombers and fighters
Total being 5516

So just the USAAF put up over 10,000 sorties that day.

Not all were 'effective' sorties, but they were aircraft that started out on the mission.  Losses could have occurred with any of the planes. Throw in the RAF numbers and all of a sudden losing 4000 aircraft over the course of 3 months doesn't seem all that much and I'd imagine when weighted against the total sorties flown is a small percentage.

Just found a number of total Allied Sorties flown on D-Day of 14,674 with 113 aircraft lost, many to friendly fire.   Luftwaffe put up 319 Sorties.

That's just numbers and not considering the horrible loss of life to those aircrew BTW.  We did the track from Caen to Falaise in the summer of 2005 and the cemeteries are full of fighter bomber pilots alongside the ground troops

The John Foreman book I've referenced "1944-Over the Beaches"

http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=9524108658&searchurl=an%3DJohn%2BForeman%26kn%3D1944%26sts%3Dt

[Angus]

I'll post some little odd thing about the 7th of June 1944 as soon as I get off my current job
Look forward to it

[cpxxx]

Would I be right in thinking that the majority of, or at least a significant number of those losses were among the P47s and Typhoons who were directly involved in supporting the ground troops? I have a couple of books relating the experiences of Typhoon pilots and their casualty rate was truly horrendous right to the end of the war.

[MiloMorai]

The Army Air Force in WW2
http://www.afhso.af.mil/topics/factsheets/factsheet.asp?id=17871

Worth the read for anyone interested in the USAAF in WW2.

The link Angus for the Army Air Force Statisical Digest,
http://www.afhra.af.mil/timelines/index.asp

[Angus]

Sorry for the dally, took me some reading and thinking to find what I was looking for.
What I found out was simply that the Allied pilots suffered heavily from flak, for their missions were mostly ground support.

[Babalonian]

Angus you might check 9th AF lossses as well as 8th. They were doing a lot of the ground attack missions in Normandy. I'm not suprised the numbers were high, ground attack was a very nasty business for all involved.

Shifty beat me to it, be sure to put the 9th Air Force on the list.  Especialy during this time frame, the begining of ground combat in Western Europe meant the begining of low-level air support missions.

Sorry for the dally, took me some reading and thinking to find what I was looking for.
What I found out was simply that the Allied pilots suffered heavily from flak, for their missions were mostly ground support.

Not only that but as the Germans retreated, they took all their AAA pieces that they could with them.  While the LW may of been getting closer to extinction in the skies as the war went on, the thickness and deadly concentration of flak from the ground (and from fewer targets) just kept getting worse for the pilots who had to face it.  I forget the name and dates, can maybe look it up easily, but a few particular bloody days twords the end of 44 or start of 45 for airmen was when the ally armies advanced on the german AAA training school ~SW germany I think.

[Angus]

I had an odd job in Germany some 15 years ago. My boss was a flak gunner in WW2. He was drafted in 1943 at the age of 15, - his entire class in school was.
It was a nasty job and they came out of the war 2 years later with 50%+ losses. He was lucky, - only lost an eye.
Over the skies of Germany in those days, my great uncle used to "go hunting" in "his" P51C. That would be anything from armed recce, ground attack, crossbow, and escort.
He hated the flak like the pest and was very much afraid of it. German fighters? No problem, and already in 1944 a rare sight.
Out of his classroom of 50 aviators in 1940, he only knew of 2 survivors.