Eastern Front

[Gixer]

Like to add, anyone interested in the Eastern front and grand war games check out Gary Grigsby War in The East, the scale is immense one turn can take hours.

http://www.matrixgames.com/products/372/details/Gary.Grigsby's.War.in.the.East:.The.German-Soviet.


<S>...-Gixer

[GScholz]

If my memory serves me, in WW2, more than 50% of the German ammo was fired into the air, mostly over their own country.
Puts a little comlication into the equation of "minor skirmish"

I'm sorry but you'll have to back that up with something. It may be true for heavy flak calibers, but for overall ammunition expenditure I find that, extremely, hard to believe.

[Badger85]

Great link! Thank you.

[SmokinLoon]

I figured this thread would bring out the debates on who, what, where, and why s to how the war was won.   

Just know that the is no linear reasoning as to why the Germans lost.  There is a host of reasons and they are all relative.  Every singular reason someone wants to point out as to "why" the Germans lost is automatically able to be followed up with a "but, the...", so please do yourselves a favor and understand that this is not a singular reason and instead a conglomeration of things as to the downfall.

To learn such things you will need to shut off the History Channel and the Military Channel, and instead read and read again books authored by Shirer, Keegan, and other respectable authors. Get in to the fine details, not the popular and macro themes.  There is so much more to be learned.     

[Triton28]

so please do yourselves a favor and understand that this is not a singular reason and instead a conglomeration of things as to the downfall.

Uh huh.  Bad decision making.

 

[ink]

they lost due to attrition and bad decision making.....

maybe the fact they were taking orders from an idiot had something to do with it.....

[zack1234]

He was a idiot when they were losing

Staffenburg was a turncoat and a traitor

Typical

[Gixer]

they lost due to attrition and bad decision making.....

Never should of invaded in the first place that was the number one bad decision, treating the Ukraine as a slave bread basket instead of building them into a potential Ally was another. Also they completely underestimated the size of Russia, if you look and study a map of how far they actually managed to get and the distances involved compared to your own country/state where you live it really is incredible to see the distances of how many objectives they actually achieved.


<S>...-Gixer

[bozon]

If my memory serves me, in WW2, more than 50% of the German ammo was fired into the air, mostly over their own country.

Where did it fall?

[Angus]

On the ground of course

[Grayeagle]

I do Hearts of Iron III atm for my wargame fix ..
Using hind sight and side-stepping alla stupid things done make for some very interesting 'what if' history.

ie:
What if the US had steamed all those battlewagons over to the baltic and just smashed the german navy to bits right off the bat in 1939,
..landed every soldier they had in France and bolstered the northern border of Belgium .. etc.
US troops in Berlin late 1943 and France never falls.

What if the british had recalled all their troops/battlewagons and focused right on Germany the day the Germans declared war on Poland.
Same as above only it's british troops in Berlin in 1943.

..and then the fun part .. what if Hitler had not been so crazy.. focused his tech-research-efforts ..
No armor. An airborne army (5 Korps of 5 divisions each). Completely supplant any advantage armor would provide.
Infantry and lots of it. Reserves to begin with, switching to regular infantry by 1940.
Fleet carriers and battlewagons/support.
Interceptors/Tac bombers/Naval bombers ..with Strategic bombers in 1943.
No 'allies' ..Taking Italy, France, Britain, Spain, Switzerland, Greece, Yugoland, ..all of it by 1941.
*then* gearing up for an assault on Russia in March, 1941.
Moscow by late 1942.
Through Turkey and around the Med and into India-Burma-Thailand.
Novosibirsk by late 1943.
Landings in Brazil late 1943, major fleet engagements south of the Gulf Coast with 80+ ships involved.
Russia surrenders late 1943.. but declare war again and take it to the opposite shore by 1945.
The british call it a day and surrender in early 1944.
The Nukes arrive early 1944 along with two strategic bomber wings of 3 squadrons each.
Mexico city is first Nuked city of the war.. and Germany launches the last campaign into the southern US in late 1945.
(tuffest part is keepin the momentum up ..if you get stalled you will face major delays right down the line and allow the allies to buildup resistance)

-Frank aka GE

[SmokinLoon]

I do Hearts of Iron III atm for my wargame fix ..
Using hind sight and side-stepping alla stupid things done make for some very interesting 'what if' history.

ie:
What if the US had steamed all those battlewagons over to the baltic and just smashed the german navy to bits right off the bat in 1939,
..landed every soldier they had in France and bolstered the northern border of Belgium .. etc.
US troops in Berlin late 1943 and France never falls.

What if the british had recalled all their troops/battlewagons and focused right on Germany the day the Germans declared war on Poland.
Same as above only it's british troops in Berlin in 1943.

..and then the fun part .. what if Hitler had not been so crazy.. focused his tech-research-efforts ..
No armor. An airborne army (5 Korps of 5 divisions each). Completely supplant any advantage armor would provide.
Infantry and lots of it. Reserves to begin with, switching to regular infantry by 1940.
Fleet carriers and battlewagons/support.
Interceptors/Tac bombers/Naval bombers ..with Strategic bombers in 1943.
No 'allies' ..Taking Italy, France, Britain, Spain, Switzerland, Greece, Yugoland, ..all of it by 1941.
*then* gearing up for an assault on Russia in March, 1941.
Moscow by late 1942.
Through Turkey and around the Med and into India-Burma-Thailand.
Novosibirsk by late 1943.
Landings in Brazil late 1943, major fleet engagements south of the Gulf Coast with 80+ ships involved.
Russia surrenders late 1943.. but declare war again and take it to the opposite shore by 1945.
The british call it a day and surrender in early 1944.
The Nukes arrive early 1944 along with two strategic bomber wings of 3 squadrons each.
Mexico city is first Nuked city of the war.. and Germany launches the last campaign into the southern US in late 1945.
(tuffest part is keepin the momentum up ..if you get stalled you will face major delays right down the line and allow the allies to buildup resistance)

-Frank aka GE

The "what if" scenarios are always fun to discuss, especially with hindsight.  Realistically, the US was in no shape to do anything until mid to late  1942.  The "what if" scenarios of the UK, France, Belgium, and Holland/Denmark going full throttle in to Germany when Poland was under attack.  Consensus has been that Germany would never have gotten to Paris or even have had a plane over the British Isles.  The war would have stalled in western Germany most likely.  Also, the Japanese would still have attacked the US in the PTO and if the US didnt have to get involved in Europe even more resources could have been funneled to the PTO, perhaps an early end to the war?  Or rather no available nukes when the US is knocking on the door of the Japanese homeland in mid-1944?  Then there is the huge question of the Soviets, just would what they have done with the truce with Germany after Poland was split and the western alliance was wheels down in western Germany?  Oh, and dont forget about the ongoing struggle in China.  Who knows, maybe an early withdrawal of Japanese forces would have given the Nationalist their window to defeat the Communists? Oh the scenarios.   

[Grayeagle]

thing about Hearts of Iron III .. you control tech research, production, diplomacy, intelligence ,.even politics to some extent.

So ..playin the US .. I started buildin infantry in 1936
..by the time Poland was invaded the US could have put MacArthur in command of a full strength army
of 5 Corps, 5 Divisions per Corp ..and most of a second army
..and they along with the Belgium/French/Netherland armies would have stopped the Germans cold right on the norhern border of Belgium.

All the allies needed to do was stop them while bringing up their production/tech research ..
..by 1943 the Allies dictate where the breakthrough is going to happen ..swamp locally, run to Berlin, mop up.

So far the toughest challenge is runnin the German war machine .. for me at least.
It's easy to get side-tracked (like Hitler did over and over again) and next thing you know you have a D-Day type landing and all yer guys are scattered across the world.
Easy to get gutted like a fish while trying to regroup for defense.
So I focus on Navy buildup as second priority ..fleet carrier groups hunting with a few battlewagons to break invasion fleets.
And Naval bombers ..they are wicked effective when they get to 1944 vintage and beyond with radar guided bombs an such.

Hitler tried to do far too much with too little..
So far my game plan to start seems to be very viable.

By the time I attack Poland in May, 1939 I have:
135 reserve army infantry divisions of 3 brigades each.
3 battleships, 1 Fleet carrier, 10 transports and support ships in a 30 ship fleet.
4 fighter interceptor wings of 3 squadrons each, building to 7 wings.
1 Airborne Army, 3 Korps and building to 5 Korps of 5 divisions each.
2 AirTrans wings of 2 interceptor, 4 transport planes each
2 Naval bomb wings of 2 squadrons each, building to 8 wings.
5 Tactical bomb wings of 2 squadrons each, building to 8 wings.

It's enough to clean out the entire continent, british isles, and by late 1940 I am settin up for invading russia in March of 1941.
I dont invite anyone else to join germany ..I dont do the pact with russia .. I dont do the Czech occupation, prefer to take it along with Poland.
Initial attack on Poland on May 1st, 1939, followed by declaration of war the next day on Denmark, Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg, and Switzerland -evil grin-
Invasion of Finland followed by Sweden and Norway follow Polands demise, along with taking Lithuania, Latvia, and Estonia.
then Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, Yugoland, and Greece.
Cross the channel to the british isles with air landings initially taking Dover, Portsmouth, London soon after the Netherlands falls.
Usually a few major fleet engagements as I ferry troops to Dover to take out the british isles and Ireland.
When France surrenders I declare war on Vichy France, Spain, and Portugal.
When Spain falls I declare war on Italy.

Dropping a few paratroop divisions behind strong point defenses really works wonders ..
surrounding and destroying major forces makes for huge holes to advance through.
The spanish armies are destroyed on their northern border and it's a walk from there.
Same with Italy.. cuttiing off the peninsula entirely it becomes a very short campaign
as the Italians have almost nothing left once their armies are destroyed.
Hammer and Anvil tactics .. lethal

By the time I invade Russia I have my full paratroop army.
I land an unbroken string of divisions 3 provinces behind russian lines stretching from
Odessa north to just a few provinces from Leningrad.
The entire russian front collapses in less than a month, with nothing left of them.
It's a walk to Moscow.

..and so on

-Frank aka GE

[BreakingBad]

Really enjoyed that link, thanks for posting.

[Rash]

Impressive flash presentation of the war on the Eastern Front.

http://english.pobediteli.ru/

 

Your Icon freaks me out; Waltz?

Rash