Author Topic: How about rotate in some new rules for the the MA  (Read 1580 times)

Offline muzik

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Re: How about rotate in some new rules for the the MA
« Reply #15 on: March 16, 2013, 06:18:26 PM »
That may be the stated motive. I've heard it before, but it don't jive. If the MA is all about promoting combat, then why is there a "win" at all? They could just as easily reset the map every two days.


  To promote combat.  To give us a goal to aim for.   :airplane:

Everyone in this game came here to COMBAT, there is no real incentive needed for that. If anyone in this game ONLY cared about looking at themselves flying a ww2 aircraft on a computer screen, there are sims out there with FAR better looking graphics to look at and you don't have to pay to do it. This game has the repeat business that it does because they like the PLAYING the game. It's addictive. And you can take away the "win" and everything else in this game would stay exactly the same.

They could still take bases, they could still, in their own minds "win the war" by looking to see which country has the most bases at the end of each reset. But they don't get that trophy unless they accept the internal reward as the trophy.

As a matter of fact, that "Knights have won the war" message is like Silat in his leather thong saying beat me, beat me hard. Htc throws this challenge out there every time that message comes back up. Quit tempting people with it and those of us who come into this game with only the thought of flying fighters, would think nothing of it.

And that internal reward is what many "all about the fight" guys think should be encouraged more. Even if it's not as much about "the fight" as they want it, it could lead to just a little less focus on taking bases and a little MORE focus on the fight. A paradigm shift. It would be like the patch for smokers. You still get the drug, but you break the pattern until the habbit is gone even if the addiction is not.

So no, the win does not promote combat. If anything it is the exact opposite.
Fear? You bet your life...but that all leaves you as you reach combat. Then there's a sense of great excitement, a thrill you can't duplicate anywhere...it's actually fun. Yes, I think it is the most exciting fun in the world. — Lt. Col. Robert B. "Westy" Westbrook, USAAF 6/<--lol@mod

Offline muzik

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Re: How about rotate in some new rules for the the MA
« Reply #16 on: March 16, 2013, 07:54:26 PM »

But it works even better in the other way: A blob falling onto a base for a capture will very quickly and effectively kill of ANY resistance without even having to kill the hangars. Remember, that in such a situation it's usually the defender that's having the highest losses by far.

Sounds contradicting but I'm not even sure how the applies to what I said or to the OPs comment.

What is "it" and how does it work better than "the other way"? If you are talking about the "win" all I can say is look at my last post. If you're refering to base restrictions....


The even bigger problem is something not directly related to "basegrabbing" or the war, it's taking place on a higher level: It's changing all combat dynamics. Regardless if it's being seen as a prolonged base capture attempt or just being called a 'furball'

What is this problem you imply is taking place? I can't agree with you if you don't identify "it".


such a fight between two bases would be much more difficult to sustain, as soon the participants would have to come back from bases far away, sometimes even several sectors away.

So it's killing the action. It's hampering  longer lasting ('epic') battles in favor of suprise 'horde' attacks. I'm not convinced that this is a good thing for the game, no matter what our individual gameplay style may be.


Correct! If you took the simple undeveloped idea I just threw out there, that is exactly what would happen. If you took time to develop this idea you could find a "better way" that did not have the effect you described.

Judging from the many posts of yours I have read, you are by far one of the most rational and open minded people on these boards, so I have complete confidence that your lack of foresight was a brain fart and you can understand that I am STILL not trying to provide a fully developed idea here. But how's this for a little more detail?


--Spawn's are automatic every 5 minutes? per base, but are not synchronized with other bases of the same country.

--Spawns ARE synchronized with the opposing enemy base to put up an identical force.

--Spawns are nearly constant, occurring at staggered times along front line bases.

--A limited number of combatants are spawned each cycle. Say 20 fighters 20 bombers etc.

--If a player does not want to wait for a spawn at his current location, they may take the next spawn available which would be only seconds away but at a different base. (Odds are the impetuous will choose this method resulting in 20 v 20 engagements that meet loosely over a less inhabited part of the front line.)

--Spawns could be strategically prioritized by players to affect different parts of the combat front using strategic movements or "placement of forces."

--Spawn "wild cards" may be provided to each country. Wild cards may a one per hour vote that allows players to alter the spawn of a particular base to allow for more combatants to spawn for a specified time period. Defenders could possibly use this to break an overwhelming assault, attackers to break a defense.

--Once spawned players can go wherever they want or can work as a team. They can even rendezvous with a spawn from an adjacent base for a larger attack.

--A limited number of UNRESTRICTED spawning may be allowed in certain parts of the map to allow for some random fights.

In effect what you have are mini assaults on enemy territory, but no restrictions after spawn.

This method does not prevent large fights. It does help restrict a never ending stream of players from a country with a lopsided advantage.

Arguments like "I can't fly with my squad" are not defensible because we all know any joint venture results in players sitting in the tower waiting to roll and this would be no different. All other instances where a squad chooses to fly together, results in each member taking off at will so in effect they "are not" flying with their squad, they are intermittently flying near their squadron.

Of course there are still holes in this idea, that's what development is about.
Fear? You bet your life...but that all leaves you as you reach combat. Then there's a sense of great excitement, a thrill you can't duplicate anywhere...it's actually fun. Yes, I think it is the most exciting fun in the world. — Lt. Col. Robert B. "Westy" Westbrook, USAAF 6/<--lol@mod

Offline Dadsguns

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Re: How about rotate in some new rules for the the MA
« Reply #17 on: March 17, 2013, 10:46:10 AM »
Some very good points.... I can remember how easy it was for base captures before the towns were created larger.. we all thought the change would be dramatic and make it harder to take basis... fields are taken down and taken just as fast as before with really no difference in the past.

A change would be a welcomed sight.. without change its just more of the same.  Unrestricted access to ords..plane types... little or no eny has all helped foster to the base capture game


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Offline Lusche

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Re: How about rotate in some new rules for the the MA
« Reply #18 on: March 17, 2013, 10:57:46 AM »
I can remember how easy it was for base captures before the towns were created larger.. we all thought the change would be dramatic and make it harder to take basis... fields are taken down and taken just as fast as before with really no difference in the past.

There is a big difference. From the very moment the new town was introduced, the rate of base captures radically dropped. The # of captures per player went down to about 50% and the hours played per base capture went up by about the same amount.
The new town layout had the immediate result of much less captures, which hasn't changed in any way since then.


As a side note, it's interesting to see that the new strat system and the accompanying potentially longer downtimes of towns and ack guns in them, had basically no impact on base captures at all.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2013, 11:02:25 AM by Lusche »
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Offline Dadsguns

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Re: How about rotate in some new rules for the the MA
« Reply #19 on: March 17, 2013, 11:36:48 AM »
Does your data show an upward trend since the change or is it flat?

Another welcomed change I would like to see.. perks for everyone at the end of a war....  :neener:
« Last Edit: March 17, 2013, 11:38:44 AM by Dadsguns »


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Offline Lusche

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Re: How about rotate in some new rules for the the MA
« Reply #20 on: March 17, 2013, 11:51:30 AM »
Does your data show an upward trend since the change or is it flat?


Basically flat with the usual small variations with oen exception: In the very early days of the 'new town' we had even less base captures until the rule went from 100% to 70% and the flags were added. Since then, things have stayed on the same level (which is at about 50% lower than before the 'new town')

I will post the chart at a later point in the stats thread
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Offline SmokinLoon

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Re: How about rotate in some new rules for the the MA
« Reply #21 on: March 17, 2013, 07:12:23 PM »
I would like to see HTC change up the hardness settings of most or all OBJ in the game form time to time.  For instance, starting with the shore battery why not make it 5700 lbs and not say a peep.  Likewise, make the town buildings 156 lbs, ammo bunkers to 820 lbs, barracks to 115 lbs, radar towers to 998 lbs, auto ack guns to 15 lbs, and maybe even change up the CV to say 12,000 lbs and the cruiser to 3000 lbs.  Maybe bring down the HQ to 23,000 lbs????

Rotate motate every 2-3 weeks. 

remember... have HTC do this without warning.  After all, during the real deal it was any persons guess as to how much TNT it took to level a certain structure. Not every town building came crashing down after two HE shells from most of the tanks.

C'mon HTC... mix it up!   :aok
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Offline Ray77

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Re: How about rotate in some new rules for the the MA
« Reply #22 on: March 18, 2013, 07:44:28 AM »
Did someone deny your planned base capture??? Repeatedly?

My idea is not about base taking.  It is about survivor ability and a lack of consequence.   I try to play to plan to survive each flight.  I guess I was just thinking I something between FSO’s one life and the general MA rules now would be nice to try. 

I'm not really into base taking, although I'll help out if the squad asks.
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Offline icepac

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Re: How about rotate in some new rules for the the MA
« Reply #23 on: March 18, 2013, 08:19:36 AM »
All of my base take attempts are done because I want to use that particular field.

Offline bustr

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Re: How about rotate in some new rules for the the MA
« Reply #24 on: March 18, 2013, 04:17:13 PM »
The greater number of restrictions on players choices for activity in the guise of rules, the less fun a game devolves into. Players don't follow rules. They find ways to game them so they are not bored or burdened by them especialy if they seem to only make napoleon happy. Thats why the MA has very few rules or processes to restrict players. That's also why the AvA is not full 24x7 and the Special Events WW2 war arena is only 3 hours at a time. 

The MA is a blank sheet of paper. The hanger is a box of crayons. Why do you need HiTech to place dots on the paper to force everyone to draw the same picture to see who can follow the dots the best?

The numbers and constant activity in the MA 24x7 is due to the lack of rules and restrictions. You cannot force people to have fun by imposing rules and limitations on them.

The MA is not the Special Events Arena with imposed rules of engagement and defined objectives to win a war between two sides. It's a sandbox with no rules for using the sandbox. Some children are not capable of entertaining themselves even if the toybox is full, and they are free to do anything they want in the sandbox with them. They always want more toys and pathalogicly interfere with the other childrens fun who don't need structure or rules when none are needed. You see this in adults played out between the proponents of paternal stateism versus individualism. They are the ones always crying "there has to be a law" after something tragic happens that any sane person knows will happen regardless of how many laws exist. It's your personal responsibility to account for such things happening in the face of the fantasy that the existance of a law will suspend reality.
bustr - POTW 1st Wing


This is like the old joke that voters are harsher to their beer brewer if he has an outage, than their politicians after raising their taxes. Death and taxes are certain but, fun and sex is only now.

Offline muzik

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Re: How about rotate in some new rules for the the MA
« Reply #25 on: March 18, 2013, 06:29:49 PM »
The greater number of restrictions on players choices for activity in the guise of rules, the less fun a game devolves into.

Oh that's right, every game ever invented was by an idiot who didn't understand that. Maybe you should tell Hasbro they got it all wrong.


Players don't follow rules. They find ways to game them


What rules do people "game" in AH?

Thats why the MA has very few rules or processes to restrict players. That's also why the AvA is not full 24x7 and the Special Events WW2 war arena is only 3 hours at a time.  

They AvA and special events are the way they are because no one's going to sit out for 3 HOURS. And because it restricts the aircraft that they fly. My suggestion was neither of those.

The MA is a blank sheet of paper. The hanger is a box of crayons. Why do you need HiTech to place dots on the paper to force everyone to draw the same picture to see who can follow the dots the best?

 :rolleyes:

The numbers and constant activity in the MA 24x7 is due to the lack of rules and restrictions. You cannot force people to have fun by imposing rules and limitations on them.

The numbers and constant activity are due to the AIR COMBAT AND WW2 PLANES that drew most of us here. We TOLERATE the imperfections in the game, not stay because of them. Imposing rules ALLOWS people to have fun by creating challenges and atmosphere that are conducive to fun.

The MA is not the Special Events Arena with imposed rules of engagement and defined objectives to win a war between two sides. It's a sandbox with no rules for using the sandbox. Some children are not capable of entertaining themselves even if the toybox is full, and they are free to do anything they want in the sandbox with them. They always want more toys and pathalogicly interfere with the other childrens fun who don't need structure or rules when none are needed. You see this in adults played out between the proponents of paternal stateism versus individualism. They are the ones always crying "there has to be a law" after something tragic happens that any sane person knows will happen regardless of how many laws exist. It's your personal responsibility to account for such things happening in the face of the fantasy that the existance of a law will suspend reality.

 :rolleyes: Again with childish babble. Those "children who don't need structure or rules" weren't born that way were they? How did they get that way?

« Last Edit: March 18, 2013, 06:32:41 PM by muzik »
Fear? You bet your life...but that all leaves you as you reach combat. Then there's a sense of great excitement, a thrill you can't duplicate anywhere...it's actually fun. Yes, I think it is the most exciting fun in the world. — Lt. Col. Robert B. "Westy" Westbrook, USAAF 6/<--lol@mod

Offline bustr

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Re: How about rotate in some new rules for the the MA
« Reply #26 on: March 18, 2013, 09:53:39 PM »
You want rules imposed on people having fun without rules, becasue you are convinced you know better than they do how to have fun for their $14.95.

Lack of rules is the secret of the MA for 15 years now and why people don't get bored like they do in the rule structured AvA and SEA arenas. You seem pathalogicly incapable of leaving the place alone and playing without any rules. Rules are to punish or restrict activity in the favor of pre determined activities. Or attempt to. Players will not follow bad, boring, or rules imposed to punish them for not acting in a pre determined manner for very long.

With almost no rules or restricitons in the MA players are free to have fun and create their own individual experience. What you propose as rules are restrictions to force the paying customes in the community to follow a collective driven focus instead of individual focuses towards individual fun for their hard earned money. You seem to beleive yourself a better buisnessman than HiTech when it comes to keeping "his" doors open. Your only qualifying statment defines that it's time to sweep out the old and try the new...what ever it is but, the new for the sake of the new.

Your rules would have the same effect on player creativity in the game as does heavy taxation on companies creating new products, expanding, and hiring new employees. Taxes are restrictions on creative activity and punishment of the individual by redistribution of the owners created wealth. Simply by the decision of a thrid party who is convinced they know better than the owner of the company or his customers how their energies and monies should be directed.

So you know better than us paying customers how we want to, or should spend our energies in our limited time to have fun in this game? Wow, reminds me of the people in Washington DC and my taxes.

Who here likes paying taxes just because someone in a far off place tells you to pay your fair share because you don't have a clue how to manage or spend your own money? Or you don't have a clue how to play in the MA?
bustr - POTW 1st Wing


This is like the old joke that voters are harsher to their beer brewer if he has an outage, than their politicians after raising their taxes. Death and taxes are certain but, fun and sex is only now.

Offline Ray77

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Re: How about rotate in some new rules for the the MA
« Reply #27 on: March 19, 2013, 07:17:38 AM »
You want rules imposed on people having fun without rules, becasue you are convinced you know better than they do how to have fun for their $14.95.   No, I'm say rotate in something new every 5 maps or so...If people say it sucks, get rid of it.   I just threw the not being able to up at the same base as an idea


With almost no rules or restricitons in the MA players are free to have fun and create their own individual experience. What you propose as rules are restrictions to force the paying customes in the community to follow a collective driven focus instead of individual focuses towards individual fun for their hard earned money. You seem to beleive yourself a better buisnessman than HiTech when it comes to keeping "his" doors open. Your only qualifying statment defines that it's time to sweep out the old and try the new...what ever it is but, the new for the sake of the new. So why even have a wish list forum?  "Everything must stay the same" says Blockbuster video

Your rules would have the same effect on player creativity in the game as does heavy taxation on companies creating new products, expanding, and hiring new employees. Taxes are restrictions on creative activity and punishment of the individual by redistribution of the owners created wealth. Simply by the decision of a thrid party who is convinced they know better than the owner of the company or his customers how their energies and monies should be directed.

So you know better than us paying customers how we want to, or should spend our energies in our limited time to have fun in this game? Wow, reminds me of the people in Washington DC and my taxes.

Who here likes paying taxes just because someone in a far off place tells you to pay your fair share because you don't have a clue how to manage or spend your own money? Or you don't have a clue how to play in the MA?
I think this your attempt to make some kind of thinly-veiled attempt to call me a liberal, when outside the world of cartoon planes my politics would probably make your brand of conservatism look more like RuPaul than Rand Paul.
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Offline guncrasher

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Re: How about rotate in some new rules for the the MA
« Reply #28 on: March 19, 2013, 10:23:40 AM »
IE Every 5th map players who die will not be able to sorte out of the base the previously used.   

ray think about it. the purpose of the game is to promote combat not avoid it.



semp
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Offline Ray77

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Re: How about rotate in some new rules for the the MA
« Reply #29 on: March 19, 2013, 10:34:12 AM »
ray think about it. the purpose of the game is to promote combat not avoid it.



semp

No doubt.   And I was just using an example of what I'd like.   But someone gave other ideas about randomizing the lbs of HE to destroy structures.   I like this, right now when a mission goes up, if the guy running the mission knows what he's doing( ET comes to mind), he know exactly how many lbs he need for everything. If he has guys he trusts he wouldn't even need a backup plan.   I think that could add to the fog of war experience, but hell, I'm just sayin' rotate some one these ideas in, if they suck and most hate them, get rid of them. 
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