Spit XIV Question

[Babalonian]

I'm on the road at the moment, excuse me not digging into this myself, but before I forget - When was the four 20mm guns option first fielded on the Spit XIV?

[Karnak]

I'm on the road at the moment, excuse me not digging into this myself, but before I forget - When was the four 20mm guns option first fielded on the Spit XIV?

It never was so far as I know.  The first few had four .303s and two 20mm cannons and the vast majority had two .50s and two 20mm cannons.  The Spitfire F.21 had four 20mm cannons, but it barely saw service in WWII.

[Guppy35]

As Karnak said, it never happened on the XIV.  The Spitfire 21 which only made it to one Squadron at the very end of the war had 4 20mm but it never shot anything down as is was just too late and as it was based in England with 91 Squadron, too far away to find anything in the air to shoot at.  Two went down to flak however.

[BaldEagl]

As Karnak said, it never happened on the XIV.  The Spitfire 21 which only made it to one Squadron at the very end of the war had 4 20mm but it never shot anything down as is was just too late and as it was based in England with 91 Squadron, too far away to find anything in the air to shoot at.  Two went down to flak however.

But wasn't there a 4x20 Spit V?  Maybe desert campaign?

[Guppy35]

One squadron of MTO based ground attack Spitfire Vc carried 4 cannon and a bomb.  They were not air to air.  Some of the Malta Spits launched with 4 cannon from the carriers delivering them but lost 2 of the cannon on landing. Too much weight and impact on performance.

[Guppy35]

One squadron of MTO based ground attack Spitfire Vc carried 4 cannon and a bomb.  They were not air to air.  Some of the Malta Spits launched with 4 cannon from the carriers delivering them but lost 2 of the cannon on landing. Too much weight and impact on performance.

[Karnak]

But wasn't there a 4x20 Spit V?  Maybe desert campaign?

Any Spitfire with a universal wing could carry four 20mm cannons, it just wasn't done, other than  the one squadron of Mk Vs doing attack work and one or two Aussie Mk VIIIs in the PTO, due to the impact on performance and handling.  I recall there were also issues in heating the outer cannon.

Edit:

They could also, technically, carry eight .303s, but that also wasn't done.  Having the wing rigged for three armament options was a nice idea, just not used due to only one of those armaments being practical.

[Babalonian]

I wouldn't say this is absolute (four 3omm and four 20mm) to not consider, and I believe it should be looked into further (maybe even be added).  Palm Springs has a Spit IV (probabley one of the few early ones) with this configuration and a documented kill on a German buzz bomb. 

Two key arguements to this:
-The first being I think the biggest, our AH spit is using the later gun package but its performance is retarded to that of the earlier ones (lower octane fuel).
-Second being is that many planes in AH (P38 and LA7 off the top of my head) have rare/less-wide-spread gun package options that did see action.

If we can confirm one more instance of combat with these Spit XIVs, I think it would be an good addition and maybe help justify the Spit XIVs perked status in the MAs.


I have some pics from Palm Springs and their Spit, I will upload them hopefuly tonight when I'm back in home.

[Karnak]

The problem with the photos is that the armament could be changed in the field.  It was modular so if they have it carrying four 20mm cannons now that doesn't really mean anything about what it had in wartime.

[Guppy35]

Bab, the warbird Spit XIV you refer to has lights built into it's wings and that set up you see is NOT what it carried as an operational aircraft.  It's painted in the markings of a Spitfire 24 that did have 4 cannon.  Gotta be careful when using restored Spits as examples.

  That Spit is a low back XIV and would not have flown against the V-1s.  If memory serves, one of the wings used in the restoration at one point was on a high back 91 Squadron bird that did have a V-1 kill, which is the flimsy way they gave the entire rebuilt low back spit credit for a V-1

[Babalonian]

The problem with the photos is that the armament could be changed in the field.  It was modular so if they have it carrying four 20mm cannons now that doesn't really mean anything about what it had in wartime.

That is the thing I want to look into when I get a chance - I believe all Spit XIV wings were built with the capability/ports/bays for 4 cannons and 4 mgs but that doesn't mean definitively they saw combat in WWII in that configuration.  I also wonder if they utilised the omitted guns vacant bays for additional ammo like other aircraft....  Four 20mms would be awesome, but may be extremely limited in ammo (compared to the two 20mm and two 50cal option).

[Babalonian]

QFT Guppy, and lol, too true.  Although one wing, in all fairness, is a larger chunk than a few others I can think of.  I still want to look into it, it seems strange that they all (that I've seen) have the "capability" but didn't utilise it (you can clearly see the plugged ports for the ommited guns).

I suspect, highly, that more than one possible package/configuration was utilised in WWII.

[Karnak]

The four 20mm cannon in the Universal wing each had 120 rounds, same as when loaded with two 20mm.

[MiloMorai]

Spitfire wings,

http://spitfiresite.com/2010/04/concise-guide-to-spitfire-wing-types.html
http://spitfiresite.com/2010/04/concise-guide-to-spitfire-wing-types.html/2
http://spitfiresite.com/2010/04/concise-guide-to-spitfire-wing-types.html/3

[Guppy35]

QFT Guppy, and lol, too true.  Although one wing, in all fairness, is a larger chunk than a few others I can think of.  I still want to look into it, it seems strange that they all (that I've seen) have the "capability" but didn't utilise it (you can clearly see the plugged ports for the ommited guns).

I suspect, highly, that more than one possible package/configuration was utilised in WWII.

Bab I've been doing Spit history for 30 plus years, long before computer flight sims.  The 4 cannon Spits just didn't happen beyond the same minimal use we talk about every year in AH as folks search high and low for a reason to add 4 cannons in game to the Spit.

It wasn't in the ETO with the XIV that had Universal wings and the XIV that got to the PTO at the very end were E Wing.  One of the issues with the 4 cannon set up was gun bay heating.  The only place the 4 cannon birds saw there very limited action was in ground attack in the MTO and with one modified Spit VIII with the Aussies in the PTO that was apparently used to go after high alt Dinah recce birds.