Author Topic: Mediterranean Maelstrom  (Read 6115 times)

Offline kilo2

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3445
Mediterranean Maelstrom
« on: April 04, 2013, 02:14:03 PM »
The scenario was obviously lopsided but the question is why?

Command choices and plane vs plane match ups could be part of the problem but overall I think the setup is to blame.

A few things that I think make this setup nearly impossible for the axis to win are listed below.

1. Radar. I think that radar makes it too easy for the allies to defend their two keypads worth of target area.
2. Ship hardness. The merchant ship hardness is laughable.
3. Not enough targets for the axis/targets too compact. This setup may not even be viable due to the fact that the targets are so compact it takes no thought to defend. Along with the radar it makes it extremely difficult to achieve any success.

This setup was not very fun for axis and I think numbers reflected that.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2013, 04:40:51 PM by kilo2 »
X.O. Kommando Nowotny
FlyKommando.com

"Never abandon the possibility of attack."

Offline waystin2

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10179
Re: Mediterranean Maelstrom
« Reply #1 on: April 04, 2013, 03:12:46 PM »
I concur with one and two.  The radar was not what was described or I understood in the write-up.  Ship hardness was entirely too  high.  As far as number 3 there were tons of targets available, but the ship hardness made them unattractive target so that leaves the target rich area of Malta.  Seems there were not near enough Axis heavies to have a go anyway.  Numbers were horribly light from initial registration and dropped on both sides from the start to the finish of the event.  Your right though, it was not fun for the Axis.
CO for the Pigs On The Wing
& The nicest guy in Aces High!

Offline killrDan

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 199
      • Rolling Thunder Website
Re: Mediterranean Maelstrom
« Reply #2 on: April 04, 2013, 06:54:30 PM »
I concur with one and two.  The radar was not what was described or I understood in the write-up.  Ship hardness was entirely too  high.  As far as number 3 there were tons of targets available, but the ship hardness made them unattractive target so that leaves the target rich area of Malta.  Seems there were not near enough Axis heavies to have a go anyway.  Numbers were horribly light from initial registration and dropped on both sides from the start to the finish of the event.  Your right though, it was not fun for the Axis.

+1  I agree on points 1 and 2 also but it was a good scenario for the Allies!  With a little tweaking on the setup, round two could have a much different outcome.
THUNDER MOB - CO
Battle Over the Winter Line - II.SG4 GL

Offline kano

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 366
Re: Mediterranean Maelstrom
« Reply #3 on: April 04, 2013, 07:35:14 PM »
I agree the radar was a bit overpowered as we watched the dars building over sicily and just had to watch them come down and position are selves accordingly. Cant comment on the ships as very rarely saw them attacked as we were over malta most of the time.
To change the concentration of targets would of made the scenario far from historically correct in my opinion.

I think if the fighters on the axis side had of used the tactics they used in frame 4 with the bombers they had in frame 1/2 then the scenario could of been alot more balanced as it was.

But generally we came in on undefended buffs the 109s always seemed to be half a sector behind or totally absent, allowing us to get the buffs and get out hence the reason the buff numbers dropped in my opinion.

EatG
The Few

S/L No 32 squadron BoB 2013

Eats Eagle

Offline Rino

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8495
Re: Mediterranean Maelstrom
« Reply #4 on: April 06, 2013, 03:25:50 PM »
     The fact that the rosters were barely half filled might have had something to do with it as well.
80th FS Headhunters
PHAN
Proud veteran of the Cola Wars

Offline KCDitto

  • Aces High CM Staff
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3233
Re: Mediterranean Maelstrom
« Reply #5 on: April 06, 2013, 04:20:32 PM »
I think we need to shut down the Spitfire V factory on Malta...... What? They did not have a Spitfire V factory on Malta? Get the F out of here...... Did you see how many Spitfires took off from there?

I think to "BALANCE" this set up, and it is only my opinion, any Spitfire that is LOST must be REPLACED via the WASP. So, if a pilot bails, ditches or gets shot down, he needs to shuttle a NEW Spitfire into Malta. You could make A-170, the island in the middle of the MED active. They would have to land and rearm then could take off and fight. This would allow for a chance for the fighters to sweep over Malta and give any bomber pilots HOPE to make the target.

THIS WAS NOT DGS... So stop with that line of crap already.... <--- Preemptive strike.   

Offline ROC

  • Aces High CM Staff (Retired)
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7700
Re: Mediterranean Maelstrom
« Reply #6 on: April 06, 2013, 07:26:14 PM »
Turnout was bad for both sides.  Was from the start.  Probably not a great time to run a scenario, something to consider in the future.

I hope everyone understands that we have to design a scenario around a certain expectation of turnout.  This was designed around average numbers, and actually on the low side of that average. 
Based on that, let's talk ship hardness. 
Main Arena, 1 formation of JU88s carries enough ordinance to sink a CV. Obviously, that isn't a good idea for a scenario that rewards people for successfully attacking a target not simply getting a plane or two through.  Scenarios have obstacles. 
The Axis had 3 full squadrons of 8 JU-88s with the ability to launch at least twice each on the fleet.  This still allows for the Axis to hit Malta with the other bomber flights. That is 3 full squadrons, a grand total of 72 planes, 9 of them have to hit one CV to sink it, 3 pilots with their formations, or up to 9 singles.  9 planes out of 72, leaving the rest to pick the fleet apart.  Counting for attrition and missing, the objectives need about half of the planes to survive in order to gain ground each frame.  Turnout dictated that there simply weren't enough planes to hit the targets and escort the bombers in.  Nobody did anything wrong, it was simply a hard fought battle.  Honestly, an event that hopes half the bombers survive to advance the frame isn't asking a lot.  Time and time again, it was shown that if we had the bodies, the Axis could have done the job.  Of course, it's easy to focus on what didn't happen instead of what could have happened.
We were over Malta in frame 1 long before the Spits arrived.  Had we the bodies, the hangers could have been capped and the spits couldn't have launched.  There were 2 fields to cover, and the Axis knew which ones they were.  Not rocket science, just one of those things that could have happened.  In each frame, people made it to the fleets with plenty of time to do damage had they actually been bomber groups.  No cap to speak of, again, simply not enough people.
Anyone can second guess what should have happened, but the fact is, no one knows what would have happened if the rosters were full on Both Sides, only what could have happened.
We design scenarios so that things can happen, sometimes they do, sometimes they don't.  Command on both sides did the best they could with what they had.  In every frame, the Axis had to mount an attack, and simply did not have the resources to pull it off.  The Allies suffered the same in numbers, however it's far easier to defend with lower numbers than invade. 
I'm sure everyone has an idea about what could have been designed differently, but the reality is, it's mere speculation, numbers absolutely could have, not necessarily would have, but could have changed everything.  Any design changes, again, are simply speculation as there is no way to prove how things would have turned out had we only done it differently.
Now consider some of the changes proposed, with the turnout as expected.  Already, only 9 out of 72 bombers can take out a CV, so we lower the hardness?  We were having debates about hardness after a frame where not one single bomber made it to the target, and THAT was the conversation we were having?  Hardness could have been set to spit on the ships and they would sink and the ships would have still been floating. 
Radar.  We had it.  And Yes DGS had it also.  Changes nothing.  The objective is not to hide from the enemy but come up with a plan to beat them.  Radar can be used against someone who is seeing it as much as it can be used against them. 
Not enough targets or targets too compact.  Midway is going to suck it that logic holds true.  So is Pearl Harbor.  I can also absolutely assure you that had we had double or triple the targets and had the same turnout we would be arguing that there are too many and you were spread too thin.  You know it would happen :) 
Guys, there is no perfect scenario.  There is only a game board and the ability to do the best you can with what you have, that is the real game, and both sides did the best they could with a less than stellar convergence of conditions. 
I do enjoy reading your ideas, whether or not they are integrated into the next version of this event is something we'll consider if we chose to run this one again.  Don't mistake what I posted above as suggesting this was a flawlessly designed event, it was not, but then again, which ones are?  Of course there are some modifications to be made so by all means, keep the ideas coming, but please also try to base the ideas on possible design modifications, as there are still strategic elements that are not a design problem to solve.
 
ROC
Nothing clever here.  Please, move along.

Offline Rino

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8495
Re: Mediterranean Maelstrom
« Reply #7 on: April 06, 2013, 07:36:08 PM »
I think we need to shut down the Spitfire V factory on Malta...... What? They did not have a Spitfire V factory on Malta? Get the F out of here...... Did you see how many Spitfires took off from there?

I think to "BALANCE" this set up, and it is only my opinion, any Spitfire that is LOST must be REPLACED via the WASP. So, if a pilot bails, ditches or gets shot down, he needs to shuttle a NEW Spitfire into Malta. You could make A-170, the island in the middle of the MED active. They would have to land and rearm then could take off and fight. This would allow for a chance for the fighters to sweep over Malta and give any bomber pilots HOPE to make the target.

THIS WAS NOT DGS... So stop with that line of crap already.... <--- Preemptive strike.   

     Do the 109Fs lost get magically replaced, or do they have to be shipped or flown from the factories in Germany?
80th FS Headhunters
PHAN
Proud veteran of the Cola Wars

Offline kilo2

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3445
Re: Mediterranean Maelstrom
« Reply #8 on: April 06, 2013, 07:56:15 PM »
Turnout was bad for both sides.  Was from the start.  Probably not a great time to run a scenario, something to consider in the future.

I hope everyone understands that we have to design a scenario around a certain expectation of turnout.  This was designed around average numbers, and actually on the low side of that average. 
Based on that, let's talk ship hardness. 
Main Arena, 1 formation of JU88s carries enough ordinance to sink a CV. Obviously, that isn't a good idea for a scenario that rewards people for successfully attacking a target not simply getting a plane or two through.  Scenarios have obstacles. 
The Axis had 3 full squadrons of 8 JU-88s with the ability to launch at least twice each on the fleet.  This still allows for the Axis to hit Malta with the other bomber flights. That is 3 full squadrons, a grand total of 72 planes, 9 of them have to hit one CV to sink it, 3 pilots with their formations, or up to 9 singles.  9 planes out of 72, leaving the rest to pick the fleet apart.  Counting for attrition and missing, the objectives need about half of the planes to survive in order to gain ground each frame.  Turnout dictated that there simply weren't enough planes to hit the targets and escort the bombers in.  Nobody did anything wrong, it was simply a hard fought battle.  Honestly, an event that hopes half the bombers survive to advance the frame isn't asking a lot.  Time and time again, it was shown that if we had the bodies, the Axis could have done the job.  Of course, it's easy to focus on what didn't happen instead of what could have happened.
We were over Malta in frame 1 long before the Spits arrived.  Had we the bodies, the hangers could have been capped and the spits couldn't have launched.  There were 2 fields to cover, and the Axis knew which ones they were.  Not rocket science, just one of those things that could have happened.  In each frame, people made it to the fleets with plenty of time to do damage had they actually been bomber groups.  No cap to speak of, again, simply not enough people.
Anyone can second guess what should have happened, but the fact is, no one knows what would have happened if the rosters were full on Both Sides, only what could have happened.
We design scenarios so that things can happen, sometimes they do, sometimes they don't.  Command on both sides did the best they could with what they had.  In every frame, the Axis had to mount an attack, and simply did not have the resources to pull it off.  The Allies suffered the same in numbers, however it's far easier to defend with lower numbers than invade. 
I'm sure everyone has an idea about what could have been designed differently, but the reality is, it's mere speculation, numbers absolutely could have, not necessarily would have, but could have changed everything.  Any design changes, again, are simply speculation as there is no way to prove how things would have turned out had we only done it differently.
Now consider some of the changes proposed, with the turnout as expected.  Already, only 9 out of 72 bombers can take out a CV, so we lower the hardness?  We were having debates about hardness after a frame where not one single bomber made it to the target, and THAT was the conversation we were having?  Hardness could have been set to spit on the ships and they would sink and the ships would have still been floating. 
Radar.  We had it.  And Yes DGS had it also.  Changes nothing.  The objective is not to hide from the enemy but come up with a plan to beat them.  Radar can be used against someone who is seeing it as much as it can be used against them. 
Not enough targets or targets too compact.  Midway is going to suck it that logic holds true.  So is Pearl Harbor.  I can also absolutely assure you that had we had double or triple the targets and had the same turnout we would be arguing that there are too many and you were spread too thin.  You know it would happen :) 
Guys, there is no perfect scenario.  There is only a game board and the ability to do the best you can with what you have, that is the real game, and both sides did the best they could with a less than stellar convergence of conditions. 
I do enjoy reading your ideas, whether or not they are integrated into the next version of this event is something we'll consider if we chose to run this one again.  Don't mistake what I posted above as suggesting this was a flawlessly designed event, it was not, but then again, which ones are?  Of course there are some modifications to be made so by all means, keep the ideas coming, but please also try to base the ideas on possible design modifications, as there are still strategic elements that are not a design problem to solve.
 

You can only push the blame to numbers or players so many time before that excuse becomes overused.

Merchant ship hardness is no where near historical. This was brought up before frame 1. Radar and this setup just doesn't work. There is no perfect setup but some are better than others..
X.O. Kommando Nowotny
FlyKommando.com

"Never abandon the possibility of attack."

Offline KCDitto

  • Aces High CM Staff
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3233
Re: Mediterranean Maelstrom
« Reply #9 on: April 06, 2013, 08:22:49 PM »
     Do the 109Fs lost get magically replaced, or do they have to be shipped or flown from the factories in Germany?



Nope, but the STORY line of the scenario was a "Resupply of Malta" not Sicily.

Offline KCDitto

  • Aces High CM Staff
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3233
Re: Mediterranean Maelstrom
« Reply #10 on: April 06, 2013, 08:26:52 PM »
I am not a CM, so I am not in the loop of a set up.

But, when there is an obvious set up issue, why cannot adjustments me made "During" a scenario.

I like the way in FSO that certain units have to be filled first? and minimums and maximums are met?

Why cannot scenarios be run like that?

Offline ROC

  • Aces High CM Staff (Retired)
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7700
Re: Mediterranean Maelstrom
« Reply #11 on: April 06, 2013, 09:23:02 PM »
Quote
Why cannot scenarios be run like that?
They can be, this one just didn't happen to be designed that way.
ROC
Nothing clever here.  Please, move along.

Offline thrila

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3190
      • The Few Squadron
Re: Mediterranean Maelstrom
« Reply #12 on: April 07, 2013, 08:54:32 AM »
I agree with the comments on numbers, particularly the numbers of axis fighters- which were significantly lower than the number of allied fighters for the first couple of frames, maybe even the first 3 which was always going to make things tough for the axis.  I think this disadvantage was exacerbated by tactics used by the axis; we often encountered bf 109s furballing.  From previous experiences i expected them to keep their speed up and harass the spits to keep them away from the bombers, but all too often they got drawn off by a squadron and left the bombers undefended.  However, I think the overall fighter balance for the write up was good, with the allies having a slight numbers advantage but a disadvantage in quality.

"Willy's gone and made another,
Something like it's elder brother-
Wing tips rounded, spinner's bigger.
Unbraced tailplane ends it's figure.
One-O-nine F is it's name-
F is for futile, not for fame."

Offline Brooke

  • Aces High CM Staff
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15570
      • http://www.electraforge.com/brooke/
Re: Mediterranean Maelstrom
« Reply #13 on: April 07, 2013, 04:02:50 PM »
I'd do the following tweaks (just my opinion):

1.  Increase axis/allied fighter ratio.  Low axis/allied fighters was often low due to turnout, but the design at full attendance has it at 1.15:1, which is still too low in my opinion compared to other scenarios.

2.  Decrease hardness of ships and remove quad 40 mm.  Make it more in line with other scenarios where torpedo bombing worked out.

3.  Add ships and enforce some dispersion of them, but only if it is realistic.  I am assuming (but could be wrong, as I don't know about the history of this battle) that the Mediterranean had lots of shipping around almost always and not everything always gathered into a single strongly protected flotilla.  If Stukas in real life flew around scouting and attacking ships that didn't always have air cover, that should be part of this scenario.  If that wasn't historical, then delete item 3.

Offline Big Rat

  • AH Training Corps
  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1605
Re: Mediterranean Maelstrom
« Reply #14 on: April 07, 2013, 08:07:28 PM »
My group although flying axis did have a good time, and despite the odds, gave better then we got.  But we were only able to pull that off by very good teamwork and trying to maintain high ground at all costs.  Trying to do this and defend bombers at the same time would have been futile.  I felt the 109F only got a real advantage over the spitV if we could keep them clean, with the droptank shackle on it I think we lost some of that speed edge. There are three things I would have changed to make this better next time, albeit the first one I think would take care of most issues.

1. fighter parity 1:1.  The allies fighting over friendly territory and defending targets close to airfields, make up the difference in the 109F's better performance.

2. Radar.  With only two main targets, very easy to mass a wall of planes in front of the buffs and overwelm the escorts.  If #1 is in place this should be a non issue.

3. Ship hardness.  Non factor, in this last setup since no major damage was done. but in future use it should be adjusted.

My personal oppinion is #1, would have made this event much more playable for the axis.

 :salute
BigRat



 
When you think the fight might be going bad, it already has.
Becoming one with the Hog, is to become one with Greatness, VF-17 XO & training officer BigRat