Author Topic: B-29's Takeoff Performance  (Read 1714 times)

Offline earl1937

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B-29's Takeoff Performance
« on: April 08, 2013, 03:21:09 PM »
 :airplane:  After having a discussion with someone at Aces High today, I learn they are surprised to learn that the B-29, in auto-takeoff mode, spawns out with 50% flaps. I realized that the first I flew the aircraft and have been advising squad mates not use any flaps during take-off. In auto-takeoff mode, with 50% fuel, 40 500lbers, the bird will take off with about 1,000 feet of runway left on a large field. IN the real B-29, we only used 15% flaps when we weighted about 120,000 lbs. VR speed in that config usually, depending on field elevation and outside air temperature, was usually some where around 120MPH, IAS. We never attempted to raise flaps, even at the 15% setting until we were at least 1500AGL. Most of the time, we would use WEP, but not always, depended on the length of field and etc.
Anyone taking off in this game, should always use WEP as a matter of standard pratice, as it does provide a margin of safety on takeoffs, especially on medium size runways!
Second point I want to make is when in auto-climb and you start a turn, be prepared for the nose to drop more than normal. This is due to the weight and angle of attack of the wing during climb at slow speed. This is because your wing is angled at about a 15% incline angle, or AOA, yet the aircraft is moving through the air at about a 10 or 12% angle. Just a hint guys.
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Offline Karnak

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Re: B-29's Takeoff Performance
« Reply #1 on: April 08, 2013, 03:24:47 PM »
15% or 15º?
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Offline earl1937

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Re: B-29's Takeoff Performance
« Reply #2 on: April 08, 2013, 09:16:51 PM »
15% or 15º?
:airplane: You sir are correct! I mis-printed, it should have been 15 degrees, not 15%. thanks for pointing out my error! <S> Same mistake made on the climb angle of the wing or AOA, should have degrees, not percentages.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2013, 09:19:29 PM by earl1937 »
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Offline Oldman731

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Re: B-29's Takeoff Performance
« Reply #3 on: April 08, 2013, 09:54:49 PM »
IN the real B-29, we only used 15% flaps when we weighted about 120,000 lbs. VR speed in that config usually, depending on field elevation and outside air temperature, was usually some where around 120MPH, IAS. We never attempted to raise flaps, even at the 15% setting until we were at least 1500AGL. Most of the time, we would use WEP, but not always, depended on the length of field and etc.


Thanks, Earl.  I may have missed it, but have you ever provided an account of what it was like to fly the real B-29?

- oldman

Offline Chalenge

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Re: B-29's Takeoff Performance
« Reply #4 on: April 09, 2013, 12:30:51 AM »
Personally, I always use the large airfields. Preferably, an airfield that is below 5k in alt. Then I look for the end of one runway to be overlooking a drop off. Then when I launch I pull the flaps up, set full up trim, pre-rev the engine with the brakes on, release and hit WEP. When I reach the tire marks on the far end of the runway I drop one notch of flaps. At 1.5k I level and allow speed to build before setting auto-climb. I leave WEP on until it quits. BUT, I also always carry 100% fuel.

So, I like what you are saying Earl.  :aok
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Offline icepac

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Re: B-29's Takeoff Performance
« Reply #5 on: April 09, 2013, 08:35:42 AM »
I remember someone posting a topic on a field complaining to have lost B29s on it and was able to take off fully loaded but with 50% fuel and only brought in one click of flaps right before rotation and another to clear a hill which were immediately brought back to one click after getting over the hill.

I didn't know the B29 had wep at that time and didn't use it.


Offline Krusty

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Re: B-29's Takeoff Performance
« Reply #6 on: April 09, 2013, 12:47:59 PM »
HTC specifically said that you can load the B-29 BEYOND its max takeoff weight in this game. I suspect people are taking max bomb load and max fuel load. The B-29s were overloaded when they weren't OVER-loaded.

Most folks that can't take off in one can blame it on user error.

Offline colmbo

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Re: B-29's Takeoff Performance
« Reply #7 on: April 09, 2013, 02:11:57 PM »
So Earl, what was max takeoff weight for the B-29?
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Offline earl1937

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Re: B-29's Takeoff Performance
« Reply #8 on: April 09, 2013, 02:55:53 PM »
So Earl, what was max takeoff weight for the B-29?
:airplane: The "C" model, depending on "mission design", was 132,500 lbs. You have to understand that there were several different variants of the "C". The RB-29C, which I was first Officer on, we were restricted to 128,650 lbs, with the ECM compartment fully staffed with 7 operators. Our mission profile was usually 10 to 12 hours, depending on the altitude the "spooks" wanted us at. If the conditions were right, the engineer could "peak" the EGT to about 240 gallons per hour.
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Offline earl1937

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Re: B-29's Takeoff Performance
« Reply #9 on: April 09, 2013, 03:02:18 PM »

Thanks, Earl.  I may have missed it, but have you ever provided an account of what it was like to fly the real B-29?

- oldman
:airplane: Good solid aircraft to fly! Was a great instrument platform! Was very forgiving in slow flight reams, stalls and etc. Only problem were the R-3350 compound engines which were prone to catch fire in flight. I had 3 such episoids in 4.7 years. NOne of which were very serious. The one thing it did not do well, was handled a load of "Ice", which we tried to avoid as much as possible.
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Offline Krusty

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Re: B-29's Takeoff Performance
« Reply #10 on: April 09, 2013, 11:02:17 PM »
Those compound engines were post-war variants and not the same as WW2 variants. They recovered some 450 lost hp per engine, and would noticably have improved power output as compared to the 1943 era B-29A R-3350 variants. F-13s weren't even re-designated as RB-29s until 1948. Early models of the R-3350 made only 2200 hp (early as in WW2 variants), while end-of-run (very post-war) models made 3500 hp.

For the B-29 we have the "loaded" weight was 120,000 lbs and MTO as 133,500 lbs from wiki. I do seem to recall early use in WW2 had something in the neighborhood of 100,000 lbs MTO allowed. This was most likely caused by the engines overheating in the hot tropical climate and the short runways available for the bombers -- meaning less weight allowed to just get them in the air safely. It was later increased by the time we were bombing Japan. Squadron Signal lists "Loaded Weight" as 135,000 lbs, though I think that by April 1945 this was pushed to 140,000 lbs. Let's go by this 140,000 lbs for our AH bomber.

This is going to look like crap, because it's in a table on the source but no tables in this forum (unless you manually do it all, which is a pain)... Edited as I copied/pasted.

Taken from: http://philcrowther.com/6thBG/6bgb29_perf.html

Quote
Fuel Capacity and Range Quantity Weight/Unit Weight Range (Est)
  Regular Wing Tanks 5,608 gals 6 lbs 33,648 lbs 2,480 miles
  Auxiliary Center Wing Tanks 1,332 gals 6 lbs   7,992 lbs    590 miles
  Standard Total Fuel Load  6,940 gals 6 lbs 41,640 lbs 3,070 miles
  Bomb Bay Tanks (X 2)2 1,280 gals 6 lbs 7,680 lbs    565 miles
  Maximum Fuel Load - Combat 8,220 gals 6 lbs 49,320 lbs 3,635 miles
  Bomb Bay Tanks (X 2)2 1,280 gals 6 lbs 7,680 lbs    565 miles
  Maximum Fuel Load - Ferry 9,500 gals 6 lbs 57,000 lbs 4,200 miles

Notes:
 
1) Range will vary widely with bombload (see published figures below). The computation above assumes a fuel burn of 475 gph at 220 mph. This appears to correlate well with actual performance.
 
2) Each long range tank held 640 gals. Each bomb bay could hold 2, for a total of 4 max. However, with 4, there was no room for bombs. Thus, you would only use 4 on a ferry flight and 2 on a bombing mission.

Payload Capacity Quantity Weight/Unit Weight
  AN-M30 GP 80    100 lbs   8,000 lbs
  AN-M57 GP 56    250 lbs 14,000 lbs
  AN-M?? GP 56    300 lbs 16,800 lbs
  AN-M64 GP 40    500 lbs 20,000 lbs
  AN-M65 GP 12 1,000 lbs 12,000 lbs
  AN-Mk1 Armor-Piercing 12 1,600 lbs 19,200 lbs
  AN-M66 GP   8 2,000 lbs 16,000 lbs
  AN-M56 GP Light Case    4 4,000 lbs 16,000 lbs

It mentions at the bottom the weight breakdown with full internal fuel ("standard total fuel") and 20,000lbs of bombs you're well past the 140K MTO limit, at 143K. More likely than not one bomb bay held aux fuel tanks and the other held as little as 5K ord.

I have yet to see any actual combat records or logs that state fuel load AND bombs. Many list bombloads, but don't say how much fuel, and those sources I can find that state fuel are hypothetical (like the link I posted above). It would be interesting to see fuel and bomb breakdowns in the same reference.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2013, 11:04:04 PM by Krusty »

Offline Puma44

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Re: B-29's Takeoff Performance
« Reply #11 on: April 10, 2013, 12:30:05 PM »

Thanks, Earl.  I may have missed it, but have you ever provided an account of what it was like to fly the real B-29?

- oldman

Great stuff Earl!  Good to hear from someone who has actual expertise.  Tell us more, please.   :aok
« Last Edit: April 10, 2013, 12:48:58 PM by Puma44 »



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Offline earl1937

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Re: B-29's Takeoff Performance
« Reply #12 on: April 10, 2013, 02:38:06 PM »
Those compound engines were post-war variants and not the same as WW2 variants. They recovered some 450 lost hp per engine, and would noticably have improved power output as compared to the 1943 era B-29A R-3350 variants. F-13s weren't even re-designated as RB-29s until 1948. Early models of the R-3350 made only 2200 hp (early as in WW2 variants), while end-of-run (very post-war) models made 3500 hp.

For the B-29 we have the "loaded" weight was 120,000 lbs and MTO as 133,500 lbs from wiki. I do seem to recall early use in WW2 had something in the neighborhood of 100,000 lbs MTO allowed. This was most likely caused by the engines overheating in the hot tropical climate and the short runways available for the bombers -- meaning less weight allowed to just get them in the air safely. It was later increased by the time we were bombing Japan. Squadron Signal lists "Loaded Weight" as 135,000 lbs, though I think that by April 1945 this was pushed to 140,000 lbs. Let's go by this 140,000 lbs for our AH bomber.

This is going to look like crap, because it's in a table on the source but no tables in this forum (unless you manually do it all, which is a pain)... Edited as I copied/pasted.

Taken from: http://philcrowther.com/6thBG/6bgb29_perf.html

It mentions at the bottom the weight breakdown with full internal fuel ("standard total fuel") and 20,000lbs of bombs you're well past the 140K MTO limit, at 143K. More likely than not one bomb bay held aux fuel tanks and the other held as little as 5K ord.

I have yet to see any actual combat records or logs that state fuel load AND bombs. Many list bombloads, but don't say how much fuel, and those sources I can find that state fuel are hypothetical (like the link I posted above). It would be interesting to see fuel and bomb breakdowns in the same reference.
:airplane: Krusty, as usual, I enjoy reading your posts in AH. First flight for me was in August 1954, and I did hear a lot of different "tales" concerning the old bird back in the WW2 days. One of the things we must remember, even though the 29 when though some testing after design, nothing like today's design testing, those brave young men, and sometimes old men, were actually doing flight testing as they flew into combat! One of the interesting problems they had when first putting the old bird into service was the amount of travel of the CG. As you know, as you burn fuel, your center of gravity moves to the rear in most aircraft.IN the 29, they discovered that burning the fuel from the outboards inward to the "center-inner" tanks next to the fuselage, the CG actually move forward and you became "nose" heavy, requiring a lot of nose up trim. As experience grew, they realized because of the slight taper of the wing, as they burned fuel, the CG moved towards the front. Then, because of safety concerns, growing out of wheels up landings and etc, it is best to get the fuel as far away from the fuselage as possible, so the standard way of burn for us was "center-inners" first, "center" next, then the outboard fuel cells last. This way, returning from a 12 or 14 hour mish, most of the fuel you have left is in the outer wing area, increasing the safety margin in the event of an accident. Our "flight" plan fuel load when something like this: 10 hours at 240 gallon per hour, plus 1 hour of reserve, 240 more gallons, plus 45 min, 180 more gallon for a total of 2660 gallon at takeoff. We allowed 60 gallon for start up, taxi and run up, plus the 15 gallons in each tank of unusable fuel, that is a total of 2710 gallon at start up. We only had only two 20MM tail guns, operated by a G-32 Radar aiming system, so we didn't have the weight that a standard B-29C had at takeoff. We had no fuselage tank, as it had been removed to install the ECM compartment.
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Offline Citabria

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Re: B-29's Takeoff Performance
« Reply #13 on: April 10, 2013, 07:16:25 PM »
thx for sharing earl great stuff
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Offline Krusty

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Re: B-29's Takeoff Performance
« Reply #14 on: April 10, 2013, 08:28:22 PM »
Great stuff, indeed!  :aok